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comfortmaker furnace not lighting....help getting a bit cold..


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20 replies to this topic

#1 danw2002

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 03:08 PM

hey gang, i have a comfortmaker RPJ2(model GNJ050N12A1 to be exact) series fan assisted gas furnace that is not heating.  here is what is going on.  it seems the gas valve is not opening so it will not light.  the combustion fan starts like normal, then the igniter glows, but the gas valve will not open, so then igniter shuts off after the set short time, and then the main blower turns on, so it thinks that it is all good, but no flame...where to start? i am good with a meter and such, so let me know what areas to check.  BTW it uses a 50A52-111 control module if that will help.  thanks.

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#2 AccApp

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 04:04 PM

Is the ignition control sending the correct voltage (usually ~24v) to the gas valve when the ignitor is glowing? If yes, replace the gas valve, if not replace the controller . A lot of those W-R modules are not available but a Universal silicon carbide hot surface module will work just fine. Could also be some thermal limit switches in between the control and the gas valve, be sure and check the modules terminals for voltage output at the correct time if you suspect it may be faulty.
"When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.


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#3 danw2002

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 07:17 PM

Thanks for the quick response, ok on the gas valve, there are 4 leads.  yellow, white, orange/red and blue.  the blue goes to the pressure/limit/rollout switch loop. the other three to the control module, which one or two should show 24ac? thanks...also i take it the blue should be showing something, as not having a connection on it(ie one of the safety switches) will pull the gas valve shut, right? 

 

[user=9503]AccApp[/user] wrote:

Is the ignition control sending the correct voltage (usually ~24v) to the gas valve when the ignitor is glowing? If yes, replace the gas valve, if not replace the controller . A lot of those W-R modules are not available but a Universal silicon carbide hot surface module will work just fine. Could also be some thermal limit switches in between the control and the gas valve, be sure and check the modules terminals for voltage output at the correct time if you suspect it may be faulty.



#4 AccApp

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Posted 31 October 2006 - 04:39 AM

Are the terminals on the gas valve marked? MV/PV/G/C, something like that. Should be a wiring diagram somewhere and you can trace the wires back to the control module and tell us what the terminals there are marked.
"When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.


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#5 danw2002

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Posted 31 October 2006 - 08:25 AM

where i got the colors was off the diagram, on the control module they are marked GR, GC, GM as best i can see, on the valve, 2,5,3,4(not much help i know) i would have to look at the valve and see if it has markings on itself, will do if i need to, let me know, thanks.

 

[user=9503]AccApp[/user] wrote:

Are the terminals on the gas valve marked? MV/PV/G/C, something like that. Should be a wiring diagram somewhere and you can trace the wires back to the control module and tell us what the terminals there are marked.



#6 AccApp

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Posted 31 October 2006 - 12:55 PM

Can you post pics of the wiring diagram and gas valve?
"When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.


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#7 danw2002

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Posted 31 October 2006 - 01:56 PM

here is the wireing diagram, the gas valve would take a bit more time, so let me know if you still need it after looking at the wiring, i can look at it to answer anything you may need to know.  thanks.

Posted ImagePosted Image


#8 AccApp

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Posted 31 October 2006 - 04:29 PM

Disconnect all leads to the gas valve and put them so they won't ground out. Check all voltages between each wire after the ignitor glows and we'll know the problem. You have an integrated furnace control, one with both ignition and blower speed control in one unit.
"When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.


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#9 danw2002

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Posted 31 October 2006 - 05:07 PM

ok, so unplug the gas valve(all 4 leads are on the one plug) and check voltages on each lead, which one do i use as neutral? thanks so much.

 

[user=9503]AccApp[/user] wrote:

Disconnect all leads to the gas valve and put them so they won't ground out. Check all voltages between each wire after the ignitor glows and we'll know the problem. You have an integrated furnace control, one with both ignition and blower speed control in one unit.



#10 AccApp

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Posted 31 October 2006 - 05:25 PM

Doesn't matter, you can even clip one lead to the blue or yellow off the transformer and check voltage to each lead.
"When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.


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#11 danw2002

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Posted 31 October 2006 - 08:20 PM

ok, will do and will report back.  thanks.

[user=9503]AccApp[/user] wrote:

Doesn't matter, you can even clip one lead to the blue or yellow off the transformer and check voltage to each lead.



#12 hvacdrd

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Posted 01 November 2006 - 11:39 AM

Just when I thought I had seen it all...then I worked on one of these...

This particular ignition control is obsolete by the manufacturer, it utilizes a radiant sensor to verify ignitor warm up and to verify ignition- very similar to a flame sensor used on a gas dryer except it has NO(normally open) contacts and NC(normally closed)contacts. Don't even ask why they used this setup when a bettter mouse trap was already available.

That being said, check the terminals to the radiant sensor. The one I just worked on had one of the terminals break off of the sensor itself. It is located below the ignitor  and is a 2 x 3 square black box. Looks like(I can't see the diagram too clearly) Black to Pink is NC and Black to Brown is NO. When the ignitior turns off the NO contacts close and NC contacts open. The ICP part number to the sensor is 1009948, and no it doesn't come up on the repairclinic.com site. 

White-Rodgers couldn't give me any information on the gas valve or control. ICP didn't provide me with much other than the fact it is obsolete and there is an update kit available - (converts the control system to flame rectification complete with a new control and wiring harnesses & burner cover). The part number is 1011671 and runs around $220.00 at a wholesale supplier.

As for checking just the gas valve I couldn't identify one terminal from the next and went through every White-Rodgers gas valve wiring diagram I could find with no success. Again it is specific to this control but will work with the upgrade kit.

Hope this helps


#13 danw2002

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Posted 02 November 2006 - 08:39 AM

it most certainly does, will let you know what i find out, and anyother ideas are welcome, thanks gang, hope this gets me on the right track.

[user=11934]hvacdrd[/user] wrote:

Just when I thought I had seen it all...then I worked on one of these...

This particular ignition control is obsolete by the manufacturer, it utilizes a radiant sensor to verify ignitor warm up and to verify ignition- very similar to a flame sensor used on a gas dryer except it has NO(normally open) contacts and NC(normally closed)contacts. Don't even ask why they used this setup when a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


Hope this helps



#14 danw2002

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Posted 30 September 2007 - 03:34 PM

ok gang, after dealing all last winter with a portable heater, i am attacking this again, it looks like the control unit is caput. so what do i need to get to replace it? and wire it in, i know there is a kit avalable, and includes wire and all but at just under 400.00 and with just the module going for 100.00 , and being a fixit guy, can i just replace the module and rewire it up?  the bad module is again a 50a52-111 out of a confortmaker rpj-11  model GNJ050N12A1.  best i can tell is a White Rodgers 50A55-843 should work, but what do i need to change on my furnace to get heat again.

[user=11934]hvacdrd[/user] wrote:

Just when I thought I had seen it all...then I worked on one of these...

This particular ignition control is obsolete by the manufacturer, it utilizes a radiant sensor to verify ignitor warm up and to verify ignition- very similar to a flame sensor used on a gas dryer except it has NO(normally open) contacts and NC(normally closed)contacts. Don't even ask why they used this setup when a bettter mouse trap was already available.

That being said, check the terminals to the radiant sensor. The one I just worked on had one of the terminals break off of the sensor itself. It is located below the ignitor  and is a 2 x 3 square black box. Looks like(I can't see the diagram too clearly) Black to Pink is NC and Black to Brown is NO. When the ignitior turns off the NO contacts close and NC contacts open. The ICP part number to the sensor is 1009948, and no it doesn't come up on the repairclinic.com site. 

White-Rodgers couldn't give me any information on the gas valve or control. ICP didn't provide me with much other than the fact it is obsolete and there is an update kit available - (converts the control system to flame rectification complete with a new control and wiring harnesses & burner cover). The part number is 1011671 and runs around $220.00 at a wholesale supplier.

As for checking just the gas valve I couldn't identify one terminal from the next and went through every White-Rodgers gas valve wiring diagram I could find with no success. Again it is specific to this control but will work with the upgrade kit.

Hope this helps



#15 Dan Webster

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Posted 01 October 2007 - 06:20 AM

if that gas valve aint opening it could be a faulty burner to ground on the module(remove corrosion from terminals)

contaminated sensor may be the culprit(Shine the sensor with sand cloth)

draft inducer fan pressure not adequate(check the cage)

draft inducer bellows switch may be bad(blow out the cobwebs)

or it could be the gas valve itself is haywire(continuity)

one of the roll out switchs might be open(4 each switch must be closed)

a roll out will pop open when a rusty burner does not ignite properly

making the flame roll out of the cumbustion chamber.

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#16 danw2002

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Posted 01 October 2007 - 11:15 AM

thanks for your help applianceman, i belive we have done all that and it all points to the control module being bad, it does not give the gas valve an on signal.  so i need to know if the retro kit needs to be used, or if i can just get the module(see other post for numbers of kit and module) itself and wire it in, looks like the retro kit includes a new style flame sensor, and some harnesses to make hook up easier and some burner cover plates for different model furnaces.  anyone else?  :shock:

[user=4554]applianceman18007260692[/user] wrote:

if that gas valve aint opening it could be a faulty burner to ground on the module(remove corrosion from terminals)

contaminated sensor may be the culprit(Shine the sensor with sand cloth)

draft inducer fan pressure not adequate(check the cage)

draft inducer bellows switch may be bad(blow out the cobwebs)

or it could be the gas valve itself is haywire(continuity)

one of the roll out switchs might be open(4 each switch must be closed)

a roll out will pop open when a rusty burner does not ignite properly

making the flame roll out of the cumbustion chamber.



#17 dkpd1581

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Posted 01 October 2007 - 12:41 PM

I dont want to overstate the obvious; however, I have not read anywhere in this thread that continuity of the valve coil windings was checked and verified.  I have never worked on one of these; but, it sounds like a 2 stage gas valve. 

Can you take 24 VAC straight from the transformer and put it directly to the gas valve and verify that is changes state - ie do you hear the click or the sound of gas through the orifice.  Use a fused jumper wire and identify which wire is the common (from the diagram) so you don't ground anything out in case you are wrong.

If you have continuity and have 24 VAC directly to the valve, you may have a stuck valve.  As funny as it sounds, a good smack of the Channel Locks can help free the valve if it is in fact stuck.

This will tell you definitively if it is the valve or the board and you can move on from there.

Let us know.

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#18 hvacdrd

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Posted 01 October 2007 - 01:31 PM

I was thinking the same thing when I ran into it and the problem I ran into was the gas valve wiring configuration. It wasn't 2-stage, maybe some pick & hold arrangement like Carrier. You are correct that the kit isn't necessary although it did make the job easier (given the fact I was wedged between a water softner and looking sideways the whole time). I'll see if I can get a copy of the wiring diagram from my customer to see what we can do.

#19 danw2002

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Posted 03 October 2007 - 11:41 AM

yes, all this was checked by first myself, then a furnace tech, who also told me what i had figured out, the controler is bad, so i need help putting one in, that is why i asked for wireing and info if i had to get the kit, or just the module and wire it in my self, thanks for your help dkpd1581

[user=16896]dkpd1581[/user] wrote:

I dont want to overstate the obvious; however, I have not read anywhere in this thread that continuity of the valve coil windings was checked and verified.  I have never worked on one of these; but, it sounds like a 2 stage gas valve. 

Can you take 24 VAC straight from the transformer and put it directly to the gas valve and verify that is changes state - ie do you hear the click or the sound of gas through the orifice.  Use a fused jumper wire and identify which wire is the common (from the diagram) so you don't ground anything out in case you are wrong.

If you have continuity and have 24 VAC directly to the valve, you may have a stuck valve.  As funny as it sounds, a good smack of the Channel Locks can help free the valve if it is in fact stuck.

This will tell you definitively if it is the valve or the board and you can move on from there.

Let us know.

1*



#20 danw2002

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Posted 10 October 2007 - 08:31 AM

Any word on that wiring diagram??  and i am rechecking all per what you all have said, just to make sure the repairman that checked it was not taking the easy way out and saying it was the control unit...and to make sure when i checked it i did not miss something.....thanks.

[user=11934]hvacdrd[/user] wrote:

I was thinking the same thing when I ran into it and the problem I ran into was the gas valve wiring configuration. It wasn't 2-stage, maybe some pick & hold arrangement like Carrier. You are correct that the kit isn't necessary although it did make the job easier (given the fact I was wedged between a water softner and looking sideways the whole time). I'll see if I can get a copy of the wiring diagram from my customer to see what we can do.






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