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fan does not always work in heat mode


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39 replies to this topic

#1 bigcrunch

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 09:28 PM

I have a Payne PF1MNA036 that runs on the heat strips\coils no heat pump.
When it calls for heat most of the time fan kicks on and pushes warm air out of the vents. Sometimes the fan does not come on, sometimes the fan cuts off while still on the heat cycle with few degrees shy of where the thermostat is set.
In either non function situation the thermostat has "heat on" the displayed and red LED is lit up on the control panel outside of the air handler that shows heat is energized.

Fan comes on and stays on during all A\C cycles.

Any ideas of where the problem maybe?

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#2 jumptrout

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 07:41 AM

Does this model have a fan control board or a dedicated fan relay.
How many wires on the fan motor and where are they connected?
Your motor should have a black motor wire connected for high speed for cooling.
It may have a red or blue wire connected for low or medium speed heat.
The lo or med. speeds could be bad or a bad wire connection.
The fan relay could be bad in the lo or med. relay switch.
Your common wire will be white yellow or purple.
Leave it alone.
If red or blue is connected,remove them and tape the terminal ends so they do not short out.
Put the black wire in the terminal the red or blue was in and run the heater and let us know what happens.

#3 jumptrout

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 07:45 AM

This unit may also be wired in series with a fan limit switch that must be a specific temperature to activate and de-activate.
If so the limit switch could be bad or a heater limit could be bad.
Attach your amp meter to the system while running in heat.
Each heater will pull about 18-20 amps.

Edited by jumptrout, 24 December 2011 - 09:03 AM.


#4 bigcrunch

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 10:24 AM

Looks like a dedicated fan relay board.

3 wires come out of the fan, yellow to a transformer, black to relay on control board, blue not attached.

The heat coils are pullign amps dont know how much, wires get very warm.

I'll get some pics of the setup.

#5 bigcrunch

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 10:56 AM

pics of electrical
http://i307.photobuc.../DSC03168-1.jpg
http://i307.photobuc...C2/DSC03169.jpg
http://i307.photobuc...C2/DSC03170.jpg
http://i307.photobuc...C2/DSC03168.jpg
http://i307.photobuc...C2/DSC03167.jpg
http://i307.photobuc...C2/DSC03166.jpg
http://i307.photobuc...C2/DSC03165.jpg
http://i307.photobuc...C2/DSC03164.jpg

#6 jumptrout

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 11:44 AM

To properly check this you need 2 meters.
One set for amps and attached to the air handler power supply to read heater amps.
The other set for volts to check yellow and black on the motor at the transformer and the fan relay.
These should be checked simultaneously.
If voltage to the motor stops and the heaters continue heating I would replace the control board.
In the interim you should use FAN ON at the thermostat while in the heat mode to avoid a possible malfunction in the heaters.

#7 bigcrunch

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 12:13 PM

I'll have to source another meter then.

A couple of itmes to add I replaced the control board and fan motor capacitor.

Something drawing down the amps to keep the fan from starting?

#8 jumptrout

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 01:02 PM

Now that you have provided all the information we can start over.
Amp the heaters.
Amp the motor.
Check board power(volts) to the motor.
Check the green (fan) signal at the board from the t-stat.
Verify your re-wiring of the new board to the wiring diagram.
All these have to be done at the same time to find out what is malfunctioning.

#9 RegUS_PatOff

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 01:17 PM

http://www.harborfre...igital+clamp-on
check the specs ... red "clamp" is OK,
don't get the meter with the "pink" Clamp
(also usually 20% OFF coupons somewhere, even on sale items)
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#10 Dan Webster

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 06:07 PM

That black component in photo 165 is the fan relay. Single stack sequencer. Starts the fan on a delay so that the vents will be warm when the fan comes on.

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#11 bigcrunch

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 09:09 PM

I'll acquire one of the multimeters, I think Harbor Freight will be closed Sunday. So be Monday. thanks for the info.

If a heater coil starts to go bad it can draw to much current and keep other timed devices from starting?

On the single stack timing sequencer the smaller gauge blue wire goes to the control board relay it turns it on for the fan motor?

thanks and Merry ChristmasHappy Holidays.

#12 Dan Webster

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 11:42 PM

Look at that picture. The limits and heater elements are all orange and yelllow. The fan relay has black wires a goin to it.

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#13 bigcrunch

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Posted 25 December 2011 - 02:23 AM

Hey applianceman18007260692 on the top of the relay stack to the right wires are blue, large gauge goes to heater strip smaller feeds back to the control panel to the relay on it see pic 168 top of the black relay. That one turns on the fan?

#14 bigcrunch

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Posted 25 December 2011 - 11:10 AM

Here is what I did without the multimeter to test amp draw: unplugged the first stage heat coil, second stage and fan have come on everytime now.
It does heat not as fast when both heat coils are plugged in.

Something drawing to many amps?
heat coil going bad? fan motor?

#15 jumptrout

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Posted 25 December 2011 - 11:22 AM

Since you have no meter,hook up all heaters and run them while putting your hand on the breaker in the circuit panel. If it starts getting hot,replace the breaker and re-tighten all circuit wires as well as the ground wire.

#16 Dan Webster

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Posted 25 December 2011 - 02:43 PM

They use that thing to brang the heat on in stages to prevent tripping the breaker. You want the fan to come on after the elements come on. Not very familiar with these new fangled furnaces with electronics. A simple sequencer could work that furnace without them electronics. I know guys that just yank all that out and a mount a sequencer.

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#17 bigcrunch

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Posted 25 December 2011 - 08:34 PM

I ran it with the 2 heater coils powered and fan, it ran 10 minutes on heat. The circuit breaker is not even warm temp after that duration.

#18 jumptrout

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Posted 26 December 2011 - 07:58 AM

Then you still have to check for power from the transformer connection and the fan relay connection when this is happening.
If the motor still has power it will be a bad motor.
What is the amp draw on the motor?

#19 Dan Webster

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Posted 26 December 2011 - 11:52 AM

Next time it quit put yer hand on the motor if it is hot as heck it could be a bad bearing inside the motor. I doubt if it is the cap since the thang takes off by itself. Capacitors are either gonna be bad (Shorted or open) OR good. No in between.

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#20 bigcrunch

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 09:20 PM

OK here are the test I did with amp meter

heat coil 1
start 16
run 15
heat coil 2
start 17
run 15
fan black wire
start 3.5
run 2.2
fan capacitor brown wire
run 1.75

One thing I did notice with second person at the thermostat once I plugged in the 2nd heat coil I previously unplugged, "heat on" would light up on the thermostat and heat light illuminated on the air handler control panel afixed to the outside of it. But no heat would come on, fan or coils varified with amp gauge. The unit had ran 2 minutes prior with one heat coil plugged in. I unplugged 2nd heat coil again plugged in power breaker set thermostat for heat call and everything turned on.




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