35 replies to this topic

[plsbcheap]

I have read a ton of posts on here and watch a bunch of youtube repair / troubleshooting videos. I feel like I have a good feel now for what the washer does and how to diagnose the problem but I'm stuck. Tub does not spin unless you help it get started and then eventually spins. But it don't seem like it is spinning as fast as when it was new. I did a test where you let if fill with water in the rinse cycle it agitates really fast for just a half a minute or so (I assume to rinse the soap out of clothes) and then it stops and goes into spin. If I help it get started it will spin (but not as fast), If I do not help it it will run (motor) but tub don't turn and then when it finishes the spin cycle I sprayed (misted) water on the clutch and it sizzles. It was hot. It is a little oily under the transmission (Gearbox as some call it). Brakes seems to work fine. So I took out the motor/transmission without removing the tub and tube that holds the transmission shaft (Basket drive?). I don't have a spanner wrench yet so I decided to just pull out the transmission. Actually it slide out halfway very easy but then I had to go in and out a few times and pull it kind of a jerking motion to get it to come out of the tube.

Upon inspection the clutch is oily/greasy in the hub of the clutch and the pads. Pads are not worn out and my guess is that if I cleaned the pad and hub it would grip better and spin (short term until greasy again!). The shaft of the transmission will wiggle slightly in the transmission gearbox (should it move at all?). It has some play in it. I see no major oil or grease under the washer just a film of the metal that then has collected lint (probably from the dryer!!) But a drip hangs on the bottom of the transmission. Everything else (cycles) seems to run fine.

So how do I determine for sure if I must replace the transmission? It is so expensive and I can't really swing it right now (but obviously need the washer to work). Is there a way to check it further? Is there a way to rebuild it? Does anyone swap these as a trade in for a rebuilt like in the automotive industry?

Help and direction is greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
PLSBCHEAP !

[plsbcheap]

Okay I'm pretty new at this but I wanted to try and provide some pictures.
This one is the clutch with the grease on it! and in the hub you will see it...

Here is the clutch off and you can see down into the gearbox a little. It does move back and forth probably an 1/8" left and right...Could the grease or oil have "slung" out under the clutch? I see it a little in various places under the machine.It kind of looks burnt on the clutch hub don't it?
These two photos I show the bottom with oil and the other shows the little plastic cups with a drop hanging on there. What are those pins and cups used for?

Finally in this picture you see my screw driver pointing to the hole the little cup fell out of when I pulled the transmission pretty hard out of the washer... notice the gold pin laying on top of the brake assembly.


Thanks in advance for the help and guidance. If it is possibly to rebuild the transmission (assuming it is bad) that is what I hope to do.

[plsbcheap]

I have one more idea / comment that might help someone help me. To eliminate the possibility that it is something other than the transmission I have a question... (however do remember I said that the shaft moves a little.)

Could it be fabric softner leaking down through the tube / around the transmission shaft ??? I realized today that "somehow" the Agitator Cap Barrier has been left out of the agitator for a year or two!! Of course my wife said I did it but I can't remember ever taking that cap out. The fabric softner stopped going out of the fabric softner cup/holder months ago when the spin cycle stopped spinning as fast as it once did. So I'm sitting here thinking that possible the fabric softner drained out of the holder and sat on the bolt that hold the agitator and seeped down onto the clutch and ruined the clutch / causing slipping due to the slickness of the goo. I did not even know that cap went inside the agitator until today. I've never seen that cap, i swear.. honey. It kind of makes sense that this cap is to keep the softner/fluid our of the agitator. The inside of my agitator is nasty and it was nasty underneath the agitator when I removed it today. This is "theory" but it makes sense to me. What do you think? It don't explain the drips of oil but eveything else under there looks more like fabric softner. I might have oil too. Help me decide what to do next. Thanks

[kdog]

Very Nice Pictures indeed !

I would say by the corrosion inside the clutch and the goo inside the basket drive brake housing that you have a leak through the centrepost seals/bearings - probably the most catastrophic failures associated with one of those. My guess is that the water infiltration from above has caused oil displacement from tranny. Clutch, Basket Drive and Bearings on the menu - Tranny might still be OK


Part Links:

http://www.repaircli...mber=GSW9650LW0

 

 

http://www.repaircli...mber=GSW9650LW0

 

 

http://www.repaircli...mber=GSW9650LW0

 

 

http://www.repaircli...mber=GSW9650LW0

 

[Budget Appliance Repair]

Kdog, you must be seeing something that I'm not, that doesn't look that bad at all to me. Just a severely worn out clutch lining, a very small bit of oil migration from transmission.

Is there a destintive oil splater ring on the inside of the cabinet at the level of the clutch? If NOT, there is no need to change the bearings or basket drive or worry about the transmission.

If you don't have the money for a clutch or you just want to get by for a little while until a new clutch arrives you could clean up the old clutch and lining with brake spray cleaner and scruff up the surface of the pads and the inside of the clutch housing with emory cloth. Then get a #10 flat washer and put it in either side of the spring holder cups and put it back together.

I would be willing to bet things will be fine. As far as the fabric softner cup goes, they usually just make a big mess any way and I would advize to use the fabric softner sheets in the dryer. If you really want the fabric softner in the washer then you need to have the cap inside the agitator so the fabric softner will run out the holes in the side correctly once it has spun up and out of the cup.

The fabric softner hasn't leaked down past the agitator hold down bolt, it has it's own seal also.

Edited by Budget Appliance Repair, 09 March 2012 - 07:05 AM.

[certified tech group 51]

ditto on the pics, nice......we will go over what the others have stated.......On the transmission shaft, is there any deep grooves ( where the seals seal, from the shaft to the tub support ).....If thin, shallow grooves, the transmission is a keeper.....If deep grooves, the sealing area on the shaft is shot = new gearbox.....( new seals may help, but a bear to replace, I would find a new/used tub support )........If some oil is visible ( Look on the outer wrapper for "The Ring Of Sling ") , the trans is leaking from the top seal, easy fix....( Remove the top cover, push out old seal, push in new seal...use a thin coat of silicone as a gasket )......I would install a new clutch being it is this far apart, P/N 285785...$ 50.00 clams.....Or that quick fixit stated by B.A.R. The shaft has some movement, kinda wobbly, it will get better as all of the parts are assembled.... All in all , it looks like the clutch is doing its job, just worn down.....

[plsbcheap]

Thanks for all the help. I agree now that no fabric softner seaped thru the shaft opening and onto the seal of the tranny. This picture shows the nasty agitator underneath and the outside of the agitator and the top part which spins out the softner. Nasty. I'm sure it would not be this bad with the cap in place. But this does not feel like oil at all. More like soap scum. I also doubt that there is water leaking through the centrepost, but maybe that is why there is the scum? I have never seen any water under the washer?

I would say by the corrosion inside the clutch and the goo inside the basket drive brake housing that you have a leak through the centrepost seals/bearings - probably the most catastrophic failures associated with one of those. My guess is that the water infiltration from above has caused oil displacement from tranny.

I am adding a few pictures for clarity.



AS to the shaft Certified tech group 51 mentions:

On the transmission shaft, is there any deep grooves ( where the seals seal, from the shaft to the tub support ).....If thin, shallow grooves, the transmission is a keeper.....If deep grooves, the sealing area on the shaft is shot = new gearbox.....( new seals may help, but a bear to replace, I would find a new/used tub support )........If some oil is visible ( Look on the outer wrapper for "The Ring Of Sling ") , the trans is leaking from the top seal, easy fix....( Remove the top cover, push out old seal, push in new seal...use a thin coat of silicone as a gasket )

I do have the "ring of sling" as you say and it looks like oil to me. Weird though the top of the transmission has no oil. I guess it slings it out through the clutch and don't sit on the top. See the photos for the inside of the cabinet AND the shaft. It is smooth, even at the bottom where you see my finger. No grooves you can feel on the whole shaft. It was hard to get out though, as I mentioned it "hung" when I had it about half way out.





And finally, I know now the oil on the little cups is slinging out of the tranny, but what are those cups with the little gold pins for anyway?


I love the idea of putting a seal in the top of the transmission. I wonder if I turn the tranny over will oil leak out and should it? My guess now is it is using centrifugal force and the oil is escaping up through the clutch and over time has made the clutch gunky. The pads are not that bad. I will replace the clutch and was even thinking of buy a "Heavy Duty" clutch with 6 pads instead of 3. What do you think?

Budget

Kdog, you must be seeing something that I'm not, that doesn't look that bad at all to me. Just a severely worn out clutch lining, a very small bit of oil migration from transmission.

Is there a destintive oil splater ring on the inside of the cabinet at the level of the clutch? If NOT, there is no need to change the bearings or basket drive or worry about the transmission.

If you don't have the money for a clutch or you just want to get by for a little while until a new clutch arrives you could clean up the old clutch and lining with brake spray cleaner and scruff up the surface of the pads and the inside of the clutch housing with emory cloth. Then get a #10 flat washer and put it in either side of the spring holder cups and put it back together.

Now that I see the splater ring, should I change bearings or just the top seal?
Kdog, Budget and Certified,
thanks so much for the help here. Tough economic times calls for research, research, research.. :-)

oh, and look at the last picture. What is that foam ring like gasket up on the housing and what does it suppose to fit? It looks like it is suppose to slide down or up? I know I have asked A LOT of questions.

[kdog]

The splatter is definitely evidence that water has leaked through bearings, by changing the tub support as suggested you eliminate the need to use puller/installer to replace seals and bearings for the basket drive as they are factory pre-installed.

http://www.repaircli.../280184/1200161

 

[certified tech group 51]

The shaft looks O.K.......The top seal is easily replaced..... .....remove the cover............The plastic piece is 2" tail piece from a kitchen sink, matches the seal on one side to push out the seal and the other side will allow the seal to be seated evenly back into the cover.and install side...you do not need to beat the seal in just use windex and push firmly.............

P.S. forgot to add , use a thin coating of a good silicone sealant to reseal the cover

[Budget Appliance Repair]

Kdog, that is not water leaking thru the upper seals that has made "The Ring of Sling", just oil from the clutch.

I've only seen one of two of the direct drive machines where the spin bearing were so worn out it had let water leak thru the seal and it makes much more of a gunky mess then what is being seen here.

The plastic cups and the gold pins were shipping pins that where installed when new to keep the tub from moving during shipping. When the machine gets installed and the yellow plastic rip cord is pulled it release the gold pins and they drop into the plactic cups to keep them safely out of the mechanism, (sometimes the cups fall off after years of use and you find the cups and pins on the floor and someone wants to know how to reinstall them - just throw them away).

The six pad clutch is more robust and will hold up much better on repeated overloading of the machine.

You can replace the complete clutch:
285785 - Standard 3 pad clutch with new brake release lever and spings for different size machines
http://www.repaircli...bly/285785/2670
8299642 - Large capacity 6 pad clutch assembly, (bell/lining/1 heavy duty tension spring)
http://www.repaircli.../8299642/831493
3951993 - 6 pad clutch lining only, (clean and reuse your clutch housing bell and tension spring)
http://www.repaircli.../3951993/547692

Edited by Budget Appliance Repair, 10 March 2012 - 07:06 AM.

[plsbcheap]

CERTIFED, certified tech group 51

THANKS

The shaft looks O.K.....

P.S. forgot to add , use a thin coating of a good silicone sealant to reseal the cover

What about the oil in the transmission?? I plan to replace the seal and the clutch based on everyone's recommendation. You gave me the tip on how to get the old seal out and the new seal in but it seems like there will be some oil lost that needs replacing. What kind of oil do I use and how do you refill it and how do you know where to stop? Unlike a car, I don't see a dipstick? Is this the right seal for the top of the tranny.....Item #519811

Budget:

The six pad clutch is more robust and will hold up much better on repeated overloading of the machine.

You can replace the complete clutch:
285785 - Standard 3 pad clutch with new brake release lever and spings for different size machines
http://www.repaircli...bly/285785/2670
8299642 - Large capacity 6 pad clutch assembly, (bell/lining/1 heavy duty tension spring)
http://www.repaircli.../8299642/831493
3951993 - 6 pad clutch lining only, (clean and reuse your clutch housing bell and tension spring)
http://www.repaircli.../3951993/547692

The Heavy Duty six pad clutch is only about $7 more than the standard? That seems like a smart buy as long as it also comes with the kit including cam, spring etc. I can spend $7 more much easier than keeping my sweetheart from overloading the washer...
Kdog, I would sure like to save the money on the basket drive for now. I guess if it does leak it would ruin the new clutch too but nothing seems like corrosion under there, just oily. If I had to go that far I would probably buy the wrench and replace the bearings. I see that foam ring / gasket on the basket drive too. It really does not look like it does anything to me?? Another advantage to having the wrench would be to remove the inner tub and clean the outer plastic tub. It is really dirty looking thru the plastic. Thanks guys!

[plsbcheap]

Sorry, two things,
I don't know how to delete or edit my posts so I started the above posts with "Budget" instead of crediting "Certified" and tried to fix it and posted twice. I can't figure out how to delete it now.
Secondly, There are so many different seals. What about a spin pinion seal or a shaft seal? Item # 1181094 or 3154 in addition to the cover seal above I mentioned #519811? I don't see a diagram to sort through all the possible transmission seals on the site.

[Samurai Appliance Repair Man]

I don't know how to delete or edit my posts so I started the above posts with "Budget" instead of crediting "Certified" and tried to fix it and posted twice. I can't figure out how to delete it now.

Editing is one of the many privileges that comes with Apprenticeship, which also helps to support this site and makes possible the awesome help you're getting here ==> http://apprentice.appliantology.org/

[Budget Appliance Repair]

Forgot to answer your question about the black rubber/foam ring around the brake drum, it's just a sound deadner, don't mess with it, (I've never removed one but really doubt you would hear much difference with or without it).

As far as oil in the transmission, I really wouldn't worry about it. Just make sure the transmission is blocked up good and tight and level when you take the cover off and you shouldn't spill any more oil out. From the picture of "The Ring of Sling" you haven't lost enough oil to worry about adding anymore, (unless there was a large amound on the floor under the machine). Oil is filled up to the edge of the lower transmission case.

The heavy duty six pad clutch doesn't come with a new brake release lever, (if yours isn't broken you really don't need to replace it anyway).

As far as seals, you should only need to replace the cover seal, that is were the leakage that gets in the clutch comes from.

[RegUS_PatOff]

STUDY COURSE
(DIRECT DRIVE MODELS)
UNDERSTANDING AUTOMATIC WASHER:
• MECHANICAL COMPONENTS
787772 #4.pdf
(ignore the pop-ups)

[certified tech group 51]

For the gasket, your number did not come up.............The original seal for the transmission cover gasket was a thin sealant of a sort, still available but apx $20.00 clams..........There are rebuilt gearboxes that have silicone sealant and have not leaked.......... I use any good sealant I have on hand, just an even thin coat ( unless you bent the shit out of the old one ) Just clean the old surface and wipe with isoprophal alcohol..............There is no real pressure in the oil, just a small pin hole on the cover...keep that pin hole clear.......... As B.A.R., stated not much leaked out...........If wanting to change the other seal... #285352...thrust seal................I have seen them with evidence of leaking but never changed one.....(You would have to find an install tool like a deep well socket )

[RegUS_PatOff]

see last few pages
Repair Part List - 8179867.pdf

[plsbcheap]

okay, RegUS_PatOff thanks for the diagrams. It helps a lot but the parts website is very confusing. I did email "a technicial" to be sure I get the right seal. The gearbox seal is very straight forward but I think I want to replace the other seal that in also in the top of the gearbox under the pinion, i think it is called the "seal, spin pinion" on the parts diagram you linked me to. mfg # 356427. When I look at all the diagrams and RepairClinic website for ordering parts that fit my machine I get confused. The 356427 is listed on the Whirlpool diagram for the transmission I have AND is listed again on the tube/spin shaft page too. RepairClinic part # 3176. Repair Clinic's description of the seal says "Seal for top of basket drive tube/spin shaft". So I am wondering if the same seal goes in two places and they just call it the "top of basket" ... instead of "spin pinion seal" for the transmission. There is another seal listed similarly mfg # 91939 (RepairClinic number is 3154) but it says "transmission shaft seal" but I don't even see that one listed at all on the parts diagram for my machine on the "TRANSMISSION / GEARBOX" page. That part number shows up on the brake/drive tube parts sheet as "seal, oil". So can you provide clarity on which part number goes where? I am obviously buying the gearcase seal (straight forward Mfg # 3349985) but I am confused about the other two. I want to be sure I get the seal that sits right inside the gearcase seal around the shaft. I have provided pictures of the oil in my gearcase (looks low to me?????) might add some if I can figure out where/what to add. The second picture shows the shaft and the pinion gear with seal inside of it. That is the one I want to replace while I am doing this. It looks sloppy and may be spinnin out out of there through the clutch as well.

[RegUS_PatOff]

... 356427 is listed on the Whirlpool diagram for the transmission I have AND is listed again on the tube/spin shaft page too
... 91939 ... but I don't even see that one listed at all on the parts diagram .

1) used in Transmission and on Drive Tube
2) use PDF search . . . It's on the Drive Tube page

[kdog]

91939 is the small seal that is in the top of the basket drive tube