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All show, no go, this blows.

Weil Mclain WTGO-4

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20 replies to this topic

#1 Mr. Lee Fix

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 04:47 PM

Weil Mclain WTGO-4 has been firing sporadically. It is used, at this time of year, solely for heating the domestic water in the internal tankless heater. The unit is a home heating oil fired one. Recently, usually in the early A.M., my wife says "The burners not lighting", and she was pushing the reset button on the HONEYWELL ignition and it would fire. Lately it won't fire, but if I crack the peep door, it fires. I close the view door, and go back to bed. Today it lit, but went out, and again on tries 3 and 4. FUEL in the tank. Filter is spotless and filter cannister is full but same problem and now it's as though there is no spark. Will not fire at all. Unit is in laundry area and does collect lint, but I've been keeping it clean.
Unit came with a 1.25 gph 80* B nozzle. I later installed a 1.00 B nozzle as per technicians reccommendations/practices. My new tech (3 years now) has a .85gph, but I'm not sure of the pattern but he states that he runs it over-pressured. Got me. Okay, where to start? Top flue goes into a masonry chimney. It's bad enough that my clothes washer is down (that's another forum) but when you start messing with my hot water, that's a NO NO. And last I looked the wash drum of a commercial Maytag looked a bit uncomfortable. Just thinking aloud. At least the AC is working!
Beckett burner - RWB model
Suntec strainer
HONEYWELL ignition

Unit ddoes not have the auto purge feature of the newer ones. This one is 5+1/2 years old
Lastly, this problem is repeating itself for the three years that I've been using my new tech, but it has never been this serious. Always, about 7 - 71/2 months after he tunes her (in November, this year December) it goes through this intermittent firing problem. This time, though it is much worse.

Help please!

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#2 jb8103

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 07:31 AM

I doubt you have the tools you need to return this unit to factory spec; your tech will have to do it unless you want to invest in a Beckett gauge and a pressure gauge. The Beckett gauge is like a notched ruler and is used to check the electrode positions and the Z dimension. The pressure gauge is used to check the oil pressure from the pump.

It is the fashion now to run the pump over factory spec pressure. I can't agree with that and certainly would never abide changing the nozzle. Reset that unit to factory spec especially the nozzle. Make sure the excess oil is mopped out of the burner box, likely you have quite the puddle in there. You'll want to clean the breaches also but not with a ShopVac unless you want fine oily ash all over the room. That calls for a special vacuum cleaner but I can't make brand recommendations here.

That's where you start. If you still don't get reliable ignition check electrodes and transformer pack. There's more but this alone will at least get you onto solid ground.

Edited by jb8103, 28 July 2012 - 07:34 AM.

First, do no harm.

#3 Bobice

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 08:36 AM

First get rid of new technician he's under firing your boiler which causes most of your problem. Factory specs on your boiler call for 1.25 gph B nozzle so find a reputable service technician.
Once nozzle installed and proper adjustment to burner made you'll be having hot water to spare.
Retired US Army Refrigeration Specialist / NYC Board of Education HVAC/R (Retired)
40 Years HVAC/R service, sales,installations. a tragedy has happen to me : http://web.me.com/zenzoidman/Bobice/

#4 Mr. Lee Fix

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 09:24 AM

Ginger ale and coffee....you're certainly not the inebriated ones! Surprise! I have the Z gauge, but not the pressure gauge. 5+1/2 yeqars ago I installed this thing, took the time to set everything up to specs, changed the nozzle to a 1.00 x 80B as the previous identical unit that this replaced used this nozzle (replaced due to the broken water jacket at the lower hinge warranty scenario. 10 years old and Weil Mclain gave me a new one). I completely set everything to spec( as far as the burner). The electrodes were dead on using the Z-gauge. Assembled it, hit button and it ran perfect for two years. Then, it needed cleaning and I brought in new tech in November and the stumble in July problem started.

For the record, unit now has a Delavan .85 x 80*B nozzle and it appears absolutely clean
The fuel filter was nearly spotless - usually it has a waxy type build up near the bottom (General 25A with 30A filter)
Changed oil company 1+1/2 years ago (maybe they're mixing bio-fuel. Called but no answer today)
Unit is relatively clean - lite shines through the jacket. It 's sooty but not wet and not real bad. I've seen real bad!
Tech has boosted the pressure, but I don't know how high. He says the unit is oversized for my home so he cut back nozzle and boosted pressure. Not good idea I think.
I'm thinking of a good way to check that oil is indeed getting through. I have a 1.25 x 80*B new in tube. Tech says don't use because of the pressure boost, but he can't get here and I'm not sure I want him continuing.
What's a good way to check for oil supply short of putting piece of paper in box and looking after a no fire attempt. It fired for 2 seconds last night but then died... noi flame no fire, no jhot water.

I hope this makes sense.

William

#5 Mr. Lee Fix

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 09:34 AM

What is the best way, or second best way, to check fuel delivery?
What is the best way to check for ignition spark?
I've got lots of tool...I just need to find them, and they may not be the right tools for the job!

Should I install the 1.25 x80* B nozzle knowing that the pump is turned up?
Is there a way to turn the pump down, incrementally, without a gauge for starters until I can locate a new tech who isn't all about the "They're doing this now" approach?

Thank you,

William

#6 jb8103

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 01:09 PM

Go ahead and buy the pressure gauge if you're going to keep at this. But first install the correct nozzle. It's on the data plate. You absolutely must do this or there is no point in continuing. The nozzle will tolerate the over boost until you can get a gauge on it. But these things wear out due to cavitation, which will be worse with the over boost, so don't wait too long.

Before firing, mop up the burner box. If you blow that off the result will be a series of detonations like you won't believe.

There's an electric eye in there. If it can't see flame it shuts the unit down. Clean that just to be thorough.

Edited by jb8103, 28 July 2012 - 01:11 PM.

First, do no harm.

#7 Mr. Lee Fix

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 02:46 PM

Can you give me a few recommendations on the pressure gauge? Brands and type?

I cleaned everything except the heat exchanger as it wasn't that bad, checked to be sure the electrodes were correct, cleaned all lint from impeller (blower) wheel and it wouldn't fire. Slid a strip of paper down through the peep hole and it was dry after a no-fire. Tried again and it fired for maybe 2 seconds and then no more. Extra attempts yielded nothing with or without paper.

Replaced the .85 with a factory correct 1.25 GPH x 80*B and it fired for about 2 seconds went out re-fired for 1 second and quit. Waited, hit the reset and got a 2-3 second fire and then nothing until it shuts down. Same results but maybe 3-4 second firings on 4 more tries several minutes apart.
What should I check? How should I check it? The box looks dry! I'm only looking through the peep hole, but it looks dry. Should I remove the burner assembly and open the door to do a 100% thorough inspection? I will if it makes sense - no arguments from me.
I'll open the box. Where is the electric eye?
Thank you,

William

#8 Mr. Lee Fix

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 04:08 PM

UPDATE 07-29 Sunday
I opened the box up and it was not wet. it was virtually spotless except for the 1/8" - 3/16" thick orange-reddish dry powdery residue on the floor of the box, but mostly towards the front. Rust or like falling from the heat exchange cast iron water jackets above? I cleaned and gently removed 90% of it and cleaned off the nozzle area and the fire cone (?) - the thing that looks like a turbo scroll impeller. The nozzle and the tube to which is is connected were full of fuel. The only thing that looks like an electronic eye rests in the ignition head between the electrodes but on the swing away head with the spring contacts. It's about 1/2" diameter and is encased in a clear protective layer and has an electronic grid embossed on it, but it was clean and dry. The unit fires for a couple of seconds and then flames out, blower continues to run for 20 seconds or so and shuts off. Sometimes I shut it down in case fuel wants to puddle or whatever, but only when it's not going to fire.

Based on what you mentioned it seems as though something isn't sensing ignition and shuts down fuel/spark/whatever, but is that possible. Unless whatever fuel doesn't burn is minimal and then burns off when it does fire. It appears to pull up enough oil to fill the nozzle/tube, etc., but cannot maintain the supply and therefore flames out after 2 seconds. It's like the Human Torch after a cold shower. I don't yet know of a goog and safde method to test for continued ignition/spark, but if spark died and the unit continued running as it does until it shuts down 15 or so seconds later, then the BOX SHOULD BE WET (at least damp or cloudy ) IT'S NOT
I'm open to ideas and things to check. Give me a good list and I won't stop until something works or I've run trough all of them. It's easier to keep working than it is to check back on the computer for new ideas. I'm back at it, but this no hot water thing is for the birds.

My tank's in the ground, so I'm going to hook up and above ground fuel supply at burner level with a local return (I've done this before) as this may enable the pump to keep up with demand for the time being. I should have the appropriate gauge, as I now know at least one type to use (compliments of U-Tube) and hope fully I'll be able to better check out this thing.
As always, your helpful insight is appreciated. Cold showers are not my style!

Thank you,
William

Edited by Mr. Lee Fix, 29 July 2012 - 10:26 AM.


#9 Mr. Lee Fix

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 05:55 PM

Problem Found - Now What's The Cure?
System is a 2 line feed and return. I disconnected the return and put it to a burner-level clear vessel so as to monitor the return. The return volume seemed minor. In 6 attempted firings it returned 1.25 fluid pints = 20 fl.oz. = 575 ml. Running time was 3 minutes 45 seconds (225 seconds). There was quite a bit of air mixed in. During these six attempts at firing only on the first, after hours of resting, did it fire and only for maybe 2 seconds. Again on the fourth attempt after 5 minutes it fired for about 1/2 second - nothing really. On the other attempts absolutely nothing. Zero. Zilch.
Then I disconnected the feed tube from the pump/strainer area that feeds the tube into which the nozzle is attached and VOILA! NOTHING!! That's why the box wasn't wet and it only fires after the return fuel puddles (or so I think).

So, the question is, drum roll please, "What is broken, clogged, not functioning to cause this condition? How do I fix it? I need hot water. My dog's tongue, as big as it is, just isn't cutting it! Showers are certainly in order.

I eagerly await your answers. Thank you.
William

#10 jb8103

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 07:20 PM

You're saying there is no fuel coming from the supply line? If so, take appropriate precautions and blow through the line with compressed air. I have seen - just once, mind you - a long snake of coagulated goop emerge from the line when fed compressed air under 25 psig of pressure.

Edited by jb8103, 29 July 2012 - 07:31 PM.

First, do no harm.

#11 jb8103

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 07:30 PM

That was the quick answer. If the supply line is not restricted, maybe there is a venting problem.

But first, and obviously you can be trusted to do this or I would never suggest it, get the gun off. The oil gun runs the blower wheel and the pump from a single motor using a "flex coupler". That could be sheared.

I don't follow whether you have a gauge or not yet. Anything Sid Harvey sells should be adequate. You will need one to reset your pressure.
First, do no harm.

#12 Mr. Lee Fix

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 07:32 PM

Thanks for the response. To clarify: I'm pulling from my in-ground tank, thru the filter, into the SUNTECH A2VA 7116 pump, but the feed line that comes out of the top of the pump housing and connects to the nozzle tube, when disconnected from the nozzle tube, does not piut out any fuel oil. However, in this two line system, the return to the tank line has return oil going thru it to return (the figures in my post). Why does oil that is not being sent to the nozzle return but none enter the nozzle area? What specifically should I attempt to clear out? Should I dismantle anything first? I know what you're referring to, but I don't know from what point to what point I should be concerned with? Any details would be appreciated?

Thank you for the respomse.

William

#13 Mr. Lee Fix

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 07:39 PM

The flex coupling with the keyway to index the shaft is a green plastic/rubber one on my unit. It looked good, but had lint, I cleaned and carefully and correctly re-installed it. I'll check again though. It's almost as though the path to the nozzle is clogged but the return line path is open. Where is the juncture where the single feed splits into two? I have to believe this is the area that is clogged or whatever. Any more thoughts?

Thank you,

William

I can gpo to Sids tomorrow for a gauge as i don't have one that will work.

William

#14 jb8103

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 07:56 PM

Ummm...also check your fuel line valves. You should have at least one right before the filter. You never know. Could be inadvertently left in the off position.
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#15 jb8103

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 08:04 PM

OK, I had to go to the book on the 2 line system, I've never actually had one for service. Most folks stick the tank in the basement, or for mobile homes, leave it outside in the freezing cold. Anyway, you should only have the one supply line, and the return line should be coming from the pump at the bottom. Between the filter and the pump, check for restrictions - a kink maybe, or clog inside.

Why does oil that is not being sent to the nozzle return but none enter the nozzle area?


That's a good question. I suspect you're getting just a little bit of supply, that would explain a wet return.
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#16 Mr. Lee Fix

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 10:28 PM

Sorry, just saw your post. I pulled everytning apart and cleaned it. The coupling was not broken and looked perfect. My filter housing and filter are virtually spotless. Removed and disassembled oil pump and found only insignificant amounts of soft residue. Removed upper feed tube and fitting that goes to the nozzle and they were spotless. It really seems as though the supply is weak. I'm going to have to set up a gallon or so level field supply tank with return to run on for the tme being. Hopefully, if the supply is clogged somewhere this will bypass it until the problem can be found, but I found nothing from the filter on and at least now it is spotless.

Thank you again. I appreciate your efforts. I'll keep all posted.

William

#17 Mr. Lee Fix

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 12:39 AM

Case Closed!! A supply side issue (insufficient fuel delivery) was the cause of the problem. After one thorough and meticulous cleaning (and many hours work) the Weyl McLain is wailing again. Many thanks to those, who through their knowledge, caused me to become better and finally slay the beast. Thanks to all and to all a good night!

William (Mr. Lee Fix)

#18 jb8103

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 04:22 AM

But don't forget your pressure!
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#19 jb8103

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 04:27 AM

I love the smell of fuel oil in the morning.

Smells like...victory.
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#20 Mr. Lee Fix

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 06:36 AM

....but not in the house! Hot water...and now I'll be getting into more fixing the washer. Thanks for the late nite posts reminding me to check the supply. Right now I'm "Under Pressure" but I'll "give myself one more chance" and fix the washer (with a little encouragemnet from BOWIE and Queen).

William

Edited by Mr. Lee Fix, 30 July 2012 - 06:45 AM.





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