17 replies to this topic

[Joshua Scholar]

This is my first post on appliantology, forgive me if I get anything wrong.

 

My name is Joshua and I run a washer and dryer repair business in San Francisco.

 

I have a customer waiting and I'm kinda stumped.

 

This is a Frigidaire made Kenmore laundry center, model number 417.97862792

It has a top loading washer and it's the odd sort where the door lock and lid switch have only 2 wires.

 

How you can detect door closed AND door locked AND power the lock with only 2 wires is beyond me.  Though I have to admit that I'm not sure that it detects the door being locked, perhaps it only detects door being closed.

 

It certainly can detect door closed.  The water only fills when the door is closed.

 

The motor doesn't move in spin or agitate.  The water pump works fine.  I notice that in the spin cycle the door usally locks but doesn't ALWAYS seem to lock.  It DOES detect being open or closed because the water stops.

 

Later on I noticed that it will agitate in SLOW speed.  When it went into the spin part after that, it didn't spin but for the first time there was a very strong ozone smell.

 

Troubleshooting flowchart:

 

The motor was perfectly silent in both agitate and spin.  No vibration, nothing.  No smell.

 

1) The motor can turn easily in either direction.

 

2) The start capacitor seems to charge when being tested (1st thing to test on the troubleshooting flowchart).

 

3) M3 to M6 on the motor measure 1.6 ohms.  It's supposed to measure 2.4 ohms.  But the flowchart has infinity as broken not low resistance. I'm not 100% sure that my manuals are exactly right for this machine.  They're Frigidaire manuals not Kemore.  This model takes a 3/4 hp,2 speed motor original part 131653300, replacement part 134159500

 

4) M1 to M5 measure 8 ohms as they should

 

At this point I checked wiring...  The timer contacts LOOK good, no bent cam riders.  A couple of the connectors to the timer were very badly tarnished, I cleaned them.  The pressure switch seemed to work.  I noticed the wire harness connector from the upper half to the lower half had 3 points that where browned.  I bypassed those parts of the connector.

 

Still, it didn't work.

 

But then I tried gentle.  It agitated.   I tried again agitated again, but when it got past agitate and the pump came on, I could smell strong ozone from the other room.

 

I don't have any instructions on how to test the motor directly like I do a maytag.  I suppose 120 volts between M3 and M6 and some M1 and M5 does it?

 

I told the customer that the smell made me think it was the motor, but is that conclusive?  I've noticed that flakey switches that go on and off can make a motor seem bad on other (non frigidaire) machines.

 

What do?  I can't return electronic parts once I've tried them.  Motor?  Timer?  Door lock?

 

What tests did I miss?

 

I would really appreciate advice before tomorrow afternoon, even if the advice is a phone number where I have to pay money to talk to a Frigidaire tech.

 

Thank you,

Josh

Edited by Joshua Scholar, 22 January 2013 - 02:27 AM.

[kdog]

Having a manual is a good start : http://appliantology...-laundrycenter/

[kdog]

Also, Lid Lock should have 4 wires - see video in link:

 

http://www.repaircli...er=417.97862792

 

 

 

Your issue does sound like it might be the timer, often the cam wears not necessarily the contacts.

 

http://www.repaircli...er=417.97862792

 

 

[Joshua Scholar]

There are only two wires going to the lock, period.

 

I see that the substitution number lock for that machine is a 4 wire lock (in fact I have one of those) but either that's a mistake or there is a second mechanism in the power wires to detect door open.

 

There are only 2 wires in the machine!

 

I already have the manuals that you have on file. 

 

Any ideas about WHICH of those parts are needed?

Oh I see, you recommend the timer.

 

So a bad timer can do that?  Including the ozone smell?

[Joshua Scholar]

And what about the 1.6 ohm test?  Is that acceptable?  I used two different ohm meters just to be sure of the reading.

[RegUS_PatOff]

There are only two wires going to the lock, period.

 

I see that the substitution number lock for that machine is a 4 wire lock (in fact I have one of those) but either that's a mistake or there is a second mechanism in the power wires to detect door open.

 

There are only 2 wires in the machine!

 

pictures ?

 

(2) wires going to the Lock mechanism (Wht/Red and White)

and (2) wires going to the Lock Switch (Tan and Black)

[Joshua Scholar]

I didn't take a pic of the lock. And yes there's 120 volts.

 

Also the lock that's there doesn't have the microswitch for any more wires.

Edited by Joshua Scholar, 22 January 2013 - 05:42 AM.

[Budget Appliance Repair]

A good chance the lid lock is the problem.

 

These older units with the lid switch/lock that only have two wires run the motor spin thru the lid lock.

 

There is a bi-metal in the lock that heats up with the current draw of the motor and moves the lock lever to locked, when the bi-metal in the lid switch/lock breaks loose from it's connection points or burns in half you only get power to one set of motor windings, (I believe only the start windings are powered with a bad lid switch/lock assembly), which makes the motor hum and you get the burnt windings smell and the overload in the motor will trip, (maybe you tripped the motor overload and that's why you have problems with it agitating sometimes and not others).

 

To test on these you can just bypass the lid switch to eliminate it from the system, (I've done that on an apartment size model of the same style machine that I had in my home for my use - I don't care if my own machine spins with the lid open plus I've seen cases where if left to keep trying to spin with a bad lid lock it will eventually destroy the motor from the continued overheating of the windings when trying to start so many times on only the start windings).

 

I don't believe the manual linked above is the correct one for this machine, (it is dated Feb 2003 and uses the new lid lock with the external micro switch "Lid Switch" that the agitate circuit is ran thru).  Your unit is a 2001 or older model - known because your dryer uses the front glide strip with the three nylon pads, 2002 and newer uses the hard felt glide with nylon drum glide rings.

 

I'm pretty sure the newer lid switch/lock is used on these older machines but you don't have any wires connected to the external agitate micro switch.

 

Reading the manual linked above it says the machine will agitate with the lid up but not spin but that isn't true if it originally had the lid switch/lock assembly with 4 wires, (the newer models with with 4 wires to the lid switch/lock assembly will not spin or agitate with the lid open).

Edited by Budget Appliance Repair, 22 January 2013 - 08:42 AM.

[Joshua Scholar]

sigh...

if the door lock stops spin but not agitate, that doesn't explain it not agitating in fast mode.

 

Is there no way to directly test the motor? 

 

I'm gonna try to test the door lock today and I'm going to order BOTH the motor and the timer if it fails because I can't make any sense here.

 

How can the timer make the motor produce ozone?  etc etc

[Cactus Bob]

sorry everybody , i have to dis-agree

 

the strong smell can only be 2 things , an sparking contact or a motor that had power and not running

you could hear and see the sparking contact if it was sparking that much 

 

the motor might be bad

 

check the cap , the right way ! use a meter or tool to read the mF of it , not just if it's charging

Edited by Cactus Bob, 22 January 2013 - 02:46 PM.

[Joshua Scholar]

More mysteries...

 

I talked to the customer, but instead of scheduling me to come over after he got home from work, he's a bit of a techie and he tried bypassing the door switch himself.

 

He says that it both agitates and spins in delicate mode, and is totally dead in regular mode.

 

I don't really trust customer testing but that's all I know so far.

 

So we know it had a bad door switch.. and now I'm leaning toward the timer too, but I'm not sure.

 

An important question, in theory, is: does this machine have a fast spin and a slow spin.

Because if the spin in both delicate and regular are the same speed then the difference between the two is not the motor.

 

I think I need to figure out how to direct test the motor!

[RegUS_PatOff]

it's a (2) speed Motor ..

this may be a similar wiring diagram

131780200.pdf

[Budget Appliance Repair]

I was thinking about this more last night and I have to correct some of what I said above.

 

A burnt out lid switch won't kill the motor from trying to start with only one set of winding energized, (If it did then just having the lid open and on in spin it would do this and it doesn't).

 

I believe the one's that had a bad motor and lid switch was the result of a bad motor, (run windings bad so it tries to constantly start on only one set of windings causing a major load on bi-metal in lid switch and burning it out).

 

Your machine should agitate with the lid open but not spin with lid open.

 

If low speed in the motor works then the high speed windings should be OK also since most all two speed motors start on the high speed windings and when the centrifugal switch drops the start windings out of the circuit it also switches to the low speed windings in the motor and if the machine timer is calling for low speed it will run in low instead of high.

 

Very good possibility if it truly runs OK in low speed agitate and spin with the lid switch bypassed then the timer contacts for the high speed cycles are burnt out.

 

Do you have the wiring diagram that should be with your machine?  They hide it in an envelope behind the slanted panel between the dryer and washer.

Edited by Budget Appliance Repair, 23 January 2013 - 07:45 AM.

[dimitri77565]

Forget the lid switch, it's either timer or motor . Find what color wire is high and low disconnect from motor and measure power to them.

[RegUS_PatOff]

all voltage measurements should be made with the devices connected

(unless otherwise directed)

[kdog]

Bear in mind that this unit does the switching on the Neutral side of the line, this is a bit unconventional when testing as the motor has always a hot feed. To be certain you would have to take some voltage readings at motor, but from experience I have changed many timers in those, and very rarely a motor - also recall a number of burnt wires around water level switch (red wire).

[Joshua Scholar]

Sorry I didn't get back to people on what happened.

 

I came down with the WORST flu.  I had to postpone the repair till I got better.

 

At this point the flu is gone but I'm finishing antibiotics to get rid of the pneumonia.

 

In any case the problem turned out to be:

Lid switch + timer.

 

The motor was fine.

 

 

Timer part link ==> http://www.repaircli...er=417.97862792

 

 

Lid Switch part link ==> http://www.repaircli...er=417.97862792

 

[Samurai Appliance Repair Man]

Domo for posting the outcome.  Glad you're feeling better.  Lotsa gookus going around this winter.