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GE dishwasher buzzing drain solenoid

GSD2020F01 drain solenoid buzzing

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12 replies to this topic

#1 mmbridges

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 01:30 AM

finally got around to replacing the drain pump assembly on my GE dishwasher model GSD2020F01. The leak was coming from where the solenoid lift arm cam enters the valve housing.

 

So I replaced the entire motor-pump-solenoid assembly, model DW10013, and no more leaks. However, the solenoid makes a loud buzzing sound during certain parts of the cycle. It seems when the solenoid first engages, it pulls the solenoid plunger all the way down and everything is quiet and the dishwasher drains. After a minute the solenoid seems to disengage halfway and this is when i hear the buzzing. After another minute the solenoid is fully released and there is no buzzing.

 

The buzzing is definitely caused by the solenoid because when I push on the solenoid plunger liftrod arm or the cam, I can get the buzzing to stop. so here are my questions;

 

1.) Is the solenoid only supposed to be in one of two states, either fully engaged or fully disengaged?

2.) Is the solenoid buzzing normal? I don't remember hearing this on the leaking pump assembly.

3.) How hot should the solenoid get? The plunger seemed to be very hot, i.e. hot enough where I had to pull my finger away.

 

Hope someone has seen this before and has some suggestions. Thanks!

 

 

 

 



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#2 jumptrout

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 07:08 AM

There is no intermediate phase.

The solenoid is either engaged or not.

Buzzing is normal.

With power off,push the plunger down and release it.

It should fully retract.

It may be binding.

Check for voltage or amp draw at the solenoid when it is energized.



#3 RegUS_PatOff

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 08:09 AM

I replaced the entire motor-pump-solenoid assembly, model DW10013
 
1.) Is the solenoid only supposed to be in one of two states, either fully engaged or fully disengaged?
2.) Is the solenoid buzzing normal? I don't remember hearing this on the leaking pump assembly.
3.) How hot should the solenoid get? The plunger seemed to be very hot, i.e. hot enough where I had to pull my finger away.

check the voltage at the Solenoid at engaged / and / or buzzing
.
DW10013 is a Supco part
I don't know if this applies to your model, but did you follow directions (if applicable)
Note - On Electronic Drain Feedback switch models, install the adapter bracket (11) to the solenoid using the 2 screws provided (12) in the kit.
Attach the EDFS to the adapter bracket (11) with the original screw.
 
May have been better to get the GE part WD26X10013
http://www.repaircli...?R=154&N=820985

 

Pump-and-Motor-Assembly-WD26X10013-00858


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#4 mmbridges

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:58 AM

Thanks for the quick reply. That is what i thought, only two states. I did check that it was nonbinding with the power off. i will check the voltage first while it goes through this buzzing phase. I should read either 120v or 0v rght?

#5 jumptrout

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 05:53 PM

When the plunger retracts,there should be 0 volts.

According to RegUSPatoff you used the aftermarket repair part and may not have installed it correctly.



#6 mmbridges

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 06:24 PM

hi folks. i did read the instructions that came with the aftermarket part and it refers to a electronic drain feedback switch (EDFS). I dont believe my dishwasher model comes with such a device so didn't install the bracket. Does anyone know how i can confirm this?_

I put my volt meter on and let it run through the full cycle with out me advancing the dial. I got 120v when energized and 0v when relaxed. i only heard the buzz for the last 5 sec before the voltage went to 0v. It was much quieter now and much shorter duration. i also measured coil outer temp at 116F. What i was doing before was advancing the dial to quickly get to the next drain cycle. i could have been overheating the coil.

Under the normal case what i think is happening is the current is not abruptly turning off so it gets into a state where right before shutting off a low amount of current is flowing which isn't enough to keep it fully retracted and not enough to fully release it and hence it buzzes. Any idea why this may be happening?

by the way the original coil resistance and the new coil were within a couple of ohms. ~ 34 ohms

#7 mmbridges

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 10:44 PM

So I have been thinking some more about this. the question is how could the solenoid current drop before the timer removes voltage? It seems there can be one of two ways:

 

1.) The coil impedance changes 

2.) The solenoid source electronics has some kind of current limiting feature.

 

Does anyone know how the timer electronics applies voltage to the solenoid? If it is simply through a relay then that probably rules out case #2.

 

Case #1 is more likely. Solenoid impedance changes with temperature AND plunger position. When the plunger is not being pulled into the coil, the coli inductance is small. Similarly right before the coil is energized the coil temperature is low so the resistance is at it's nominal value. When the 120v is applied, there is a large inrush of current since i=120v/coil impedance and the coil impedance is low (impedance is combination of resistance and inductance). The large current creates a strong magnetic field which pulls the plunger into the solenoid. During the state where the plunger is pulled all the way in, the coil inductance becomes low and the resistance is about the same creating an over all lower coil impedance. This results in a much lower current than the inrush current, but is enough to hold the plunger in against the return spring force and the water pushing against the valve without burning up the coil. However this current flow during the the drain cycle when the solenoid is energized, does raise the coil temperature which increases the coil resistance and overall impedance. The result is even lower current and since the magnetic force on the plunger is proportional to the current, then the plunger force  begins to reduce. Eventually the temperature gets to a point where the resulting current producing force is not enough to hold the plunger all the way in but still has enough strength to hold it maybe halfway in. Of course the inductance is lower at this plunger position so you get a little more current to flow but still not enough the pull the plunger completely back in. I believe the buzz is the result of the larger than normal 60Hz current oscillations at this halfway plunger position. Eventually the timer turns the voltage off, the plunger is completely released and the buzzing stops.

 

So as someone hinted, the problem may be the non OEM solenoid. If the aftermarket solenoid has a cheaper and consequently poorer thermal design, maybe the coil temperature rise is higher for the same on-time than the OEM solenoid.

 

What do you think?

 

I may just replace the Supco solenoid with the OEM solenoid from the leaking motor/pump/solenoid assembly as the solenoid still seemed to be working fine.



#8 jumptrout

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 07:20 AM

The 4 volt variance is insignificant for this operation.

Manual advance can cause overheating.

Check your supply power connections in the terminal box for a tight connection and good ground.



#9 Samurai Appliance Repair Man

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 07:49 AM

 i did read the instructions that came with the aftermarket part ...

 

Aftermarket parts are notorious for causing problems, not working correctly, or failing shortly after installation.  It is false economy to buy aftermarket parts.  Read the sad saga of my fall from Grace when I succumbed to the temptation of cheap prices and bought non-OEM, generic knock-off parts. (Though, in my defense, I didn't know they were non-OEM parts at the time and they were advertised as genuine replacement parts.)



#10 Budget Appliance Repair

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 07:57 AM

When the electromagnet pulls the plunger down, it doesn't close the drain flapper all the way, (only about 3/4 of the way closed), then the water pressure hits the flapper and holds it sealed against the spray arm outlet so the water goes out the drain.

 

When the water pressure hits the drain flapper and opens it the rest of the way it takes the load off the solenoid.  The solenoid is only energized for about 30 seconds and if it finishes draining before the the timer turns off power to the drain solenoid then the return springs will pull pressure against the magnetic force of the solenoid and can cause the buzzing noise.


William Burk (Willie)
Willie's Budget Appliance Repair
Eureka, CA 95501

#11 mmbridges

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 02:44 PM

When the electromagnet pulls the plunger down, it doesn't close the drain flapper all the way, (only about 3/4 of the way closed), then the water pressure hits the flapper and holds it sealed against the spray arm outlet so the water goes out the drain.

 

When the water pressure hits the drain flapper and opens it the rest of the way it takes the load off the solenoid.  The solenoid is only energized for about 30 seconds and if it finishes draining before the the timer turns off power to the drain solenoid then the return springs will pull pressure against the magnetic force of the solenoid and can cause the buzzing noise.

 

Ahhh!!! That was the piece I was missing. I knew I was seeing the solenoid plunger sit at a position other than fully closed or fully retracted. And I knew this state was  where I heard the buzzing. So three plunger positions can occur even though the coil voltage is either 120v or 0v. The water pressure from water pumped from the bottom of the washer determines whether this third plunger position is reached.

 

This also points out a second time where advancing the dial in order to perform some diagnotics has come back to bite me! So by advancing the dial I probably did not let the fill cycle run long enough thereby creating less water in the washer that had to be drained. As was revealed by Wille, since the solenoid is energized for a fixed amount of time, the less than normal amount of water that needed to be drained meant that the solenoid was in that intermediate state (i.e. engerigzed coil but no water pressure against the flapper) longer than normal. This explains why the duration of the buzzing was so long the first time I heard it and only a few seconds when I allowed the cycle to run normally.

 

Last night, I ran the dishwasher and didn't even notice the buzzing. I had the kickplate back in place and I guess that provides quite a bit of sound reduction.

 

So another warning to folks doing diagnostics. If you are going to advance the dial, be very carefull to allow the fill cycles and drain cycles to go through their full sequence. You also might still want to be careful about to puting the solenoid through too many back to back energize cycles because you probably are overheating the coil.

 

Now to the question of aftermarket parts. I am almost about to conclude that I was wrong to accuse this aftermarket solenoid to have a poorer design than the OEM part and thereby be the cause of the buzzing. Budget Appliance Repair (Willie), in your experience do the OEM solenoids experience this 2-3sec buzzing during this intermediate state?



#12 Budget Appliance Repair

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 06:18 AM

Now to the question of aftermarket parts. I am almost about to conclude that I was wrong to accuse this aftermarket solenoid to have a poorer design than the OEM part and thereby be the cause of the buzzing. Budget Appliance Repair (Willie), in your experience do the OEM solenoids experience this 2-3sec buzzing during this intermediate state?

 

I've never dealt with one of these style motors in aftermarket, I have heard the OEM solenoids buzz, just as you are experiencing with the aftermarket part.

 

I really think everything is going to be OK........


William Burk (Willie)
Willie's Budget Appliance Repair
Eureka, CA 95501

#13 mmbridges

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 05:47 PM

Thanks for your and evyerone elses feedback. I too believe everyting is going to be OK. Dishwasher has been performing well, no leaks, and I don't even notice the 2-3 sec buzzing sound with the kickplate on. I have some OEM spare parts now, if I ever need to replace the motor or solenoid.

 

Off to another project. Learned quite a bit on this one. 

 

Thanks again everyone!









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How the drain solenoid used in older GE dishwashers works and why it can make a buzzing noise

By Samurai Appliance Repair Man in Samurai Appliance Repair Man's Blog, on 25 March 2013 - 08:04 AM

Replacement drain solenoid kit

http://www.rcapplian...-01137333.jpg


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