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Fisher-Paykel GWL15 WA37T26GW2 Washer: No Hot Water

fisher-paykel washer hot water

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17 replies to this topic

#1 Samurai Appliance Repair Man

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 05:15 PM

Going out on this call tomorrow.  I already have the service manual, service summary, and parts manual but wanted to ask our resident F-P wizards, especially J5 or DADoESTX but also anyone else who works on these a lot, if there are any gotchas or user settings to check that may cause this problem.  

 

The customer has already had another servicer out how replaced the water inlet valve thermistor and that didn't fix the problem (but that didn't stop the other servicer from charging the customer a lot of money-- how do some guys get away with that?).    

 

Domo!



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#2 Wingerman

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 07:47 PM

Not an expert on these, but my experience from my notes:

 

1) Made sure that the thermistor is positioned all the way to the back of the inlet tube--check it in its elbow position.

2) These units have a "controlled Cold" option; make sure water temp entering is at least 60 degrees (if not, program for "uncontrolled cold")

3) Hot water entering temp needs to be at least 150 degrees--check hot water supply.

4) Should have 24vDC to inlet valves on call from main board/60-65 ohms on valve coils

5) 10K Ohms on thermistor/5vDC from main board.

6) Connectors tight and clean.

 

Normally, 1, 5, and 6 are the problems I've run into; otherwise, if voltages from board are not there, after checking the settings on the unit, suspect the main board.



#3 Samurai Appliance Repair Man

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 08:29 PM

Awesome info, Brother Winger, ezzacly the kind of tips I was looking for.  Mucho domos!   :thanks:

 

I'll post my findings tomorrow.  



#4 J5

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 02:32 AM

i have only changed the temp thermister once for a shorted sensor

 

my tests would be go into diagnostic mode and cycle the valves manually

 

and see wether its no hw or just slow hw

 

if its around 2006 onwards then the valves are starting to close up of machines of that timeframe

 

of course check the water is on and hoses connected correctly

 

my number 1 bet is slow valve ,



#5 Samurai Appliance Repair Man

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 07:19 AM

Mucho domos for the intel, Brother J5!   :thanks:



#6 DADoESTX

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 08:25 AM

My IWL12 throws a (non-fatal) user fault if the incoming hot water supply isn't hot enough, but seems between 110°F and 115°F is sufficient to satisfy it ... 150°F isn't required, at least not on IWL12 (Phase 6) ... and my water heater can't get that high anyway.

 

 

Not an expert on these, but my experience from my notes:

 

3) Hot water entering temp needs to be at least 150 degrees--check hot water supply.


#7 Samurai Appliance Repair Man

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 08:46 AM

Domo, Brother DADo!  I'll be sure to check his hot water temp with my IR gun.   :thanks:

 

Heading out on service calls now, will update later today.  



#8 Samurai Appliance Repair Man

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 07:31 PM

So, very interesting service call on this machine today.  

 

I put the control into diagnostic mode and actuated both valves, both opened up and the flow was good from both hot and cold.  

 

I tested the NTC thermistor.  Spec is 10k-ohms at 77F.  I read 9.87 k-ohms at 78F and the resistance decreased nicely as the hot water came in when I manually activated the hot water valve in test mode.  All good there.  

 

I tested the perverter valve and it switched from recirc to drain in less than 3 minutes.  All good there.  

 

I did find two things outside the machine that were definitely affecting it.  

 

1) The drain hose was stuck so far down into the drain pipe that the end of it had slime build up-- an indication that the drain hose is submerged for significant periods of time which could cause siphoning.  Corrected that.  

 

2) The water temp entering the washer at initial fill was ice cold, even with hot water selected and the HW valve verified energized.  The control would only allow a small amount of this water in and then just recirculate it for a long time (maybe indefinitely but I had other calls to do).  I purged the HW line so that HW was filling the washer (their HW water supply with the line purged measured at 130F) from the beginning of the cycle and it filled and progressed through the cycle normally.  But it still didn't do a complete hot water wash because it would stil mix CW into the tub.  The resulting mixture felt cool, definitely not hot.  

 

So the questions I'm trying to answer are these:

 

- Is this machine supposed to be able to do an actual HW wash (110-plus Degrees) or is this one of those things were the control algorithm defines "hot" as being 70F or something like that?

 

- What is the control's programmed response when HW wash is selected but CW (from stagnant water in the uninsulated copper pipe that had cooled to sub 50F in the basement) is actually entering?  Does it just recirc the water for a long time  trying to warm it up?  

 

Domo!



#9 Wingerman

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 09:43 PM

According to the Tech lit (Service Manual): "Recommended hot water inlet temperature 149 Degrees F" --Page 6

 

If target temp is not sensed, error code and or re circulation can occur. Are you getting the 5VDC at controller for the Thermistor?  Resistance is half the picture, the other have is the test voltage from controller.



#10 Samurai Appliance Repair Man

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 10:02 PM

According to the Tech lit (Service Manual): "Recommended hot water inlet temperature 149 Degrees F" --Page 6

 

If target temp is not sensed, error code and or re circulation can occur.

 

My version of the service manual on page 6 does say "Recommended hot water inlet temperature 149 oF / 65 oC. (Max)" but doesn't say (anywhere I could find) what the consequences of the water temp being less than that are.  At any rate, I was definitely seeing endless recirculation.  No error codes, though.  Domo for the confirmation on that!

 

 Are you getting the 5VDC at controller for the Thermistor?  Resistance is half the picture, the other have is the test voltage from controller.

 

I hang my head in shame and confess that I didn't even check for the 5vdc from the controller.   :smallcoffee:

Thanks again for the tips, Brother Winger!  



#11 DADoESTX

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 10:38 PM

I believe the install manual recommendation is the maximum recommended temp to avoid potential damage to the plastic water valve and mixing chamber components.  Being that majority of household water heaters in the U.S. nowadays are factory-set at 120°F, supplying 149°F to the machine is largely unrealistic.

 

If the incoming hot water is not hot enough, the control should trigger a (non-fatal) user fault, but will keep filling.  A user fault involves the machine beeping and probably flashing the hot temp LED.  (My IWL12 has an LCD alphanumeric display, which says "HELP, I'm not getting any hot water.")  Unless the fault response has changed on recent software revisions, recirculation has nothing to do with a hot fill fault.  A hot fill fault may not necessarily occur during the short / low-level Eco Active fill if the fill finishes before the control board time-out algorithm decides the incoming water flow isn't getting hot.

 

EcoSmart agitator machines do not run an agitated full-temp hot wash under normal operating conditions.

 

The initial fill for the Eco Active recirculation treatment period is at the selected temperature (there are five choices).  Being as this is a very low-level fill (much less than the actual Low water level -- just enough to saturate the load and keep the pump primed during recirculation), the fill can end up being essentially cold if there's a long draw-distance on the household hot water supply.

 

The recirculation period should run about 5 mins.

 

Then the machine will fill rest of the way for an agitated wash period with controlled cold water to either an auto-sensed water level or a manually-selected water level.

 

Perm Press skips the Eco Active phase, goes directly to fill for the agitated wash ... but is limited to no higher than Warm temp selection.

 

There are two ways to get a FULL FILL HOT WASH:

 

1.  *Program the Favorite button as follows (which is intended as a washer-cleaning cycle but can be used to wash clothes).  Press/hold Favorite until it beeps and flashes.  Select Perm Press.  Select Hot temperature (programming this way on Favorite is the only time Hot can be selected with Perm Press).  Press Favorite to save the programming.  Now a hot wash can be run whenever desired by selecting the (now) programmed Favorite.  (I assume) The water level can be manually set as desired for a given load after selecting Favorite.  Perm Press runs normal agitation speed.  If Delicate or Heavy Duty or Regular cycle is desired, let the machine fill with hot water to the desired level on Favorite, then shut off the power and restart on the alternate cycle, selecting a manual water level to match the already-filled level.  The Eco Active phase will not run if the water level is already filled higher, the machine will go directly into agitation.

 

2.  Fill the machine manually with hot water via Diagnostics, turn off the power and restart on the desired cycle with a manually-selected water level as per the already filled level.

 

* The programming sequence for the hot-fill washer-cleaning cycle is different on the earlier GWL10 model.


Edited by DADoESTX, 09 April 2013 - 10:46 PM.


#12 J5

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 02:42 AM

ok so lets get back to basics

 

did you test that you are getting sufficient water flow through the valves ?

 

if you did get suffcient water through the valves and once you have got real hot water into the machine then drain and start a new cycle

 

if it works then you have your answer

 

that it takes too long for the hot water to arrive at the machine and it gets upset

 

I saw it once here in aus for an aquasmart washer that on a sheets wash it would help no hot water and the answer was

 

on sheets wash it is not high efficiency and they time it took the hot water temp to arrive at he machine was too long as the heater was a long way away

 

i have only seen it once ad never again, as it doesnt really get too cold in my area

 

if it still doesnt work then likley a controller , but not something i have ever seen before


Edited by J5, 10 April 2013 - 02:43 AM.


#13 Samurai Appliance Repair Man

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 11:31 AM

2.  Fill the machine manually with hot water via Diagnostics, turn off the power and restart on the desired cycle with a manually-selected water level as per the already filled level.

 

Fantastic info, DADo, thanks again!  I suspected that the entering water temp was the problem because everything else in the machine checked out.  Since there is no sink nearby to purge the line prior to wash, I had actually thought of teaching the customer how to do exactly what you listed here.  But the woman is (I would guess) in early stage alzheimer's or some kind of early-onset dementia and she's the one who operates the laundry equipment exclusively.  Teaching her how to do this was out of the question as she barely comprehended anything I said.  Thankfully, her husband was there and, while he was pretty sharp, he never operates the laundry equipment.  I had to settle for having them run the water at the kitchen sink down the hall even though this still left a long leg of uninsulated copper pipe in the cold basement.  I also advised the husband to insulate the HW pipe.  But this is still just a bandaid.  

 

It seems to me that if F-P is going to make the algorithm in the control that picky about entering water temperature, they should add a heater, like in most front loaders.  

 

 

 

ok so lets get back to basics

 

did you test that you are getting sufficient water flow through the valves ?

 

if you did get suffcient water through the valves and once you have got real hot water into the machine then drain and start a new cycle

 

if it works then you have your answer

 

that it takes too long for the hot water to arrive at the machine and it gets upset

 

I saw it once here in aus for an aquasmart washer that on a sheets wash it would help no hot water and the answer was

 

on sheets wash it is not high efficiency and they time it took the hot water temp to arrive at he machine was too long as the heater was a long way away

 

i have only seen it once ad never again, as it doesnt really get too cold in my area

 

if it still doesnt work then likley a controller , but not something i have ever seen before

 

 

Thanks again, J5.  I really don't think it's the controller; I think the problem is simply too much cold water sitting in a long run of the HW piping that comes up from a cold basement and enters the machine during fill when HW wash is selected.  And the controller isn't programmed to handle it well.  I was able to get the machine to progress in the cycle normally after purging the HW line of CW.  

 

Thanks again to all who helped me out with this one!   :thanks:  :samurai:



#14 DADoESTX

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 02:02 PM

I helped someone a couple years ago through another message board who was having a similar problem -- no hot water fault when a cycle runs but he said it ran hot via diagnostics.  Took a bit of probing to determine that a long-distance draw on the hot water supply line was the cause.  Advised him to purge the line directly at the machine via diagnostics* before starting and that solved his problem.

 

*If one wants to have the machine run "normally" with a heated Eco Active period and a cool agitated wash, purge via diagnostics by running the hot water and the pump (Regular cycle button) simultaneously (with no clothes loaded) until the flow runs hot ... which drains the purge-water away while it flows in.  Shut off the power, load-up, select the desired cycle and temp, and start 'er up.



#15 Wingerman

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 07:05 PM

When FP says "recommended water temp 149 degrees F" --they really mean it. These units will run ok (sometimes) in the 120 degree range, but then there are others that are picky with the cool water before the hot in the HW line and it confuses the main control.  



#16 Budget Appliance Repair

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 06:09 AM

I would think F&P could run into some liability problems with requiring water temps set that hot to run there washers.

 

If you have kids, (especially younger under teens), temp being that hot run a high risk of scalding, @ 150 degrees it wouldn't take long to do some skin damage, (according to the install and user manuals on water heaters only 1.5 seconds to cause injury @ 150 degrees).


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#17 Samurai Appliance Repair Man

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 06:14 AM

When FP says "recommended water temp 149 degrees F" --they really mean it. These units will run ok (sometimes) in the 120 degree range, but then there are others that are picky with the cool water before the hot in the HW line and it confuses the main control.  

  

I would think F&P could run into some liability problems with requiring water temps set that hot to run there washers.
 

 

I'm pretty sure the 149F incoming water temperature is a MAXIMUM specification and not a minumum one, as Brother DADo pointed out previously:

I believe the install manual recommendation is the maximum recommended temp to avoid potential damage to the plastic water valve and mixing chamber components.  Being that majority of household water heaters in the U.S. nowadays are factory-set at 120°F, supplying 149°F to the machine is largely unrealistic.



#18 DADoESTX

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 10:19 AM

I routinely run my IWL12 on 115°F to 107°F incoming water and it doesn't protest.  Typically the machines won't throw up a fuss if they can meet the target ATC temp or get within a few degrees of it.  Per a GWL15 (Phase 7) service doc dated 2/2008:

 

Hot = 60°C = 140°F

Hot/Warm = 50°C / 122°F

Warm = 40°C / 104°F

Warm/Cold = 35°C / 95°F

Cold Plus (ATC Cold) = 20°C / 68°F

Cold (non-ATC) = tap cold

 

Interestingly my IWL12 (which is Phase 6) mixes warm incoming flow to 115°F, so there apparently is some variation in firmware revisions.







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