GE Profile Model: PSB42LSRBBV Freezer Not Performing

[RobGiba]

I appreciate this forum and especially the opportunity to engage with all the experts that gather here to advise, help and give guidance where possible. I apologize in advance for the lengthy post - my goal is to provide as much valuable information as possible up front.

 

To start with, I am a commercial HVAC service veteran with 28 years of experience. I currently work for Johnson Controls as a regional service manager for VRF products which is a variable refrigerant flow, inverter modulated air conditioning technology. With that said, I am not a refrigeration expert, although many of my learned skills should be applicable or at least adaptable to refrigeration troubleshooting and diagnostics.

 

Here is my problem: We have a GE Profile Model: PSB42LSRBBV Serial: HL070009 built in side-by-side refrigerator. About 6 to 9 months ago, I stared noticing that the freezer (FZ) side was having diffulty achieving and maintaining the setpoint of 0 degrees. The unit continued to deteriorate in performance until about a month ago when the freezer would only maintain a temperature of between 18 and 34 degrees. It was not longer capable of keep ice frozen solid. The refrigerator side has performed flawlessly, maintaining a steady 37 degrees(F) at setpoint.

 

Understanding that this is a complex machine with a variable speed (Samsung) compressor and dual variable speed evaporator fan motors, I opted to call in an 

appliance service technician on referral from a local high end appliance distributor here in Dallas. (Not GE service in this case.) The "technicians" initial diagnosis was to replace the main control board and the freezer evaporator fan motor to correct what he called a pulsing and surging sound from the fan motor, which he suspected was the root cuase of the freezer high temperature problem. Following these repairs which cost me $1000.00, there was no improvement to the freezer performance and incidentily the pulsing behavior of the fan is exactly as it was before the fan and board replacement. The "tech" explained to me that he was not able to speak with GE support directly as he was not an authorized servicer for their product. (I know, red flag I should of paid more attention to.)  However, he was able to speak with Samsung tech support (Samsung is apparently the manufacturer of this unit) who advised him to replace the 3-way valve coil. (I've learned that the 3-way valve diverts refrigerant to the capillaries serving the evaporators.) He replaced only the coil of the 3-way valve supposedly on recommendation from Samsung. Again, no improvement in the freezer performance. Freezer temperature fluctuates between 18 and 34 degrees(F) sometimes quite rapidly. The refrigerator side has continued to perform flawlessly maintaining a steady 37 degrees (F).

 

Up to this point, the "tech" has avoided any interest in suspecting that the sealed system was at fault (i.e. low refrigerant charge, restriction, etc.) The "tech" has all but thrown his hands up and no longer even returns my calls. He is done with my problem and waving the white flag. At this point, I am ready to work on the unit myself. I have all the tools, instrumentation and R-134A to do so. I suspect that this system may have developed a leak and now is low on refrigerant (design charge is 8.11 oz). I feel as though I want to recovery the refrigerant, install a schrader valve (low side on the compressor process tube), replace the filter/drier, evacuate and recharge by weight the design refrigerant volume at 8.11 oz. I need some guidance and pointers on the steps to get there. 

 

I'm hoping that someone out there is willing to help. My questions:

 

1) Is what I am wanting to do in the sealed systems a viable next step?

2) I have a new 3-way valve body I can install if advisable. (Recall, the tech only replaced the head.)

3) Should I tap both the high and the low side?

4) Best location to tap the high side if it is recommended?

5) Brazing guidance - brazing material? Silver content? Flux?

6) Evacuation - Single or triple evacuation? How many microns? How long?

7) Charging - charge liquid or vapor? Hose purging tips?

8) Leak checking - most probable location of a leak? Using Dyes? Methods?

 

Again, my apologies for the lengthy post. I am getting a bit desperate for a solution. This machine was nearly $7,000 when new and I am not ready to condem it. It every other aspect, it is flawless. Not so much as a scratch on it.

 

Thank you all in advance for any help provided. I am happy to take any consultation off-line if that helps. And, I am willing to put more time, effort and perhaps a bit more money into this machine if there is a solid chance to get it fixed. I appreciate the collective experience and wisdom of all the contributors to the forum.

 

Regards,

 

Robert G.

Plano, TX.

[johntech]

Have you looked at the frost pattern on the evaporator? That should tell you what you need to know without cutting into the sealed system. It is common for low refrigerant to cool a refrigerators small evaporator but not be sufficient to cool the larger evaporator in the freezer. I would pull the freezer apart and check for a nice even frost pattern on the evaporator.

Just FYI if you make your posts so long a lot of people on this site will just skip over it.

[RobGiba]

johntech - thank you for the reply. Have not looked at the frost pattern - the FZ evap on this unit is a major operation to access and visualize. But, I understand why that's important and a practical next step to dianosing sealed system performance. Also, thank you for the advice on the long post. Bad habit of mine - tend to be too detail oriented especially on complex systems. If you have a minute or two, would you mind making a few comments on some of the questions I have?

 

3) Should I tap both the high and the low side?

4) Best location to tap the high side if it is recommended?

5) Brazing guidance - brazing material? Silver content? Flux?

6) Evacuation - Single or triple evacuation? How many microns? How long?

7) Charging - charge liquid or vapor? Hose purging tips?

 

Thank you again. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 

Rob Giba

[Lighthouse]

I wouldn't even consider tapping into the system until I check the frost pattern on the evaporator and checked to make sure the thermistors are in spec. Have you looked at the tech sheet and followed directions on it?

Edited October 29, 2015 by jjones

[BradE]

If it is a Samsung branded machine, thermistors are always first check.

[lvasquez11]

10 yr compressor warranty / 5 year seal system on GE Profile units  - done mess with 3 way valve or filter drier  at this time.

 

Once source of leak is located - Repair can be completed while also replacing filter drier n source of leak. I use a dial a charge to charge units after repair. Liquid or gas is fine.  

Evacuation n recharge on process valve

 

Get your self some - all can be found on ebay or local supply house 

 

Thaw Zone - 10 -15 drops into process valve after brazing 

Trace Leak detector - 20 -25 drops into process valve after brazing 

1 stick of silver solder 15 - no flux needed 

C&D 3604 1/4 valve or similar - brazed onto process stub of compressor 

C&D CD5050 charging valve 

Edited October 30, 2015 by lvasquez11

[RobGiba]

A quick thank you to everyone who responded to my too long post. . . .johntech, jjones, BEdwards, lvasquez11, thank you guys. Per the advice given here, I think the first thing I am going to to is ensure that the freezer cabinet and the freezer evaporator thermistors are within spec and functioning properly. Then figure out how to get a visual on that evaporator to check the frost pattern. Then we'll look to exploring the sealed system as a last resort.Thanks again all and have a good weekend. Rob Giba.

[Lighthouse]

Do some reading & research of here for Samsung thermistors. Sometimes they may show to be good but really are not. They are fairly cheap and not a bad idea just to change all of them.

Not familiar with your fridge but the evaporator cover for the Samsung's usually need to be replace a lot of times, once they have been removed. If any of the Styrofoam inside of it breaks it will need to be replaced.

Good luck.

[DurhamAppliance]

The tech you had out there treated the fridge like a GE instead of a Samsung...that's why he mistakenly thought the board and fan motor are to be replaced in tandem. He was definitely over his head.... I hope you kept those parts

Did the tech test the thermistors at the board before replacing the three way? If not, that seems quite remarkable.

All this talk about leaks is certainly premature.. with this model, when fresh food section calls for cooling, refrigerant passes through fresh food evap then to freezer evap. When freezer calls for cooling and fresh food is satisfied , refrigerant does not enter ff evap. sort of a hybrid loop/3 way system. So refrigerant always passes through the freezer evap in this fridge. So If there is a leak it would have to be a mighty slow one otherwise your fresh food section would be warm by now and I think you said the 3 way has already been replaced. This doesn't, however, rule out a stricture or problem with the freezer evap.

I suggest testing thermistors at the board prior to examining frost pattern and prior to opening freezer door, otherwise your readings will be meaningless.

btw the tech not being an Authorized GE servicer should in no way raise a red flag . He was just ill-prepared.

Not familiar with your fridge but the evaporator cover for the Samsung's usually need to be replace a lot of times, once they have been removed. If any of the Styrofoam inside of it breaks it will need to be replaced. Good luck.

this is true for the fresh food evap cover as the cover must seal the evap from the humid air found in the ff section. This doesn't apply to the freezer evap cover.

.

Edited November 15, 2015 by DurhamAppliance

[RobGiba]

Durham Appliance - thank you for your input on my forum topic here. The techs decision to replace the fan motor and the main board was purely based upon his audible analysis of it. In this case, the FZ fan motor exhibits sort of a pulsing / surging during operation. (RPM's are rapidly up and down). By the way, the FZ motor runs exactly the same, even after replacement of that motor and main board. That was very disapppointing.

 

In answer to your question, I only have the FZ fan motor. The tech took the main PCB with him after the replacement.

 

To answer your other question - the tech did not test the thermistors, at least during the time I was observing him. And, he only replaced the 3-way valve coil - the valve body was not replaced. Up to this point, the sealed system has not been opened.

 

Yesterday, I ordered a new FZ Evap thermistor and a new FZ cabinet thermistor. I am going to replace those as a next step so I can rule them out with confidence.

 

I was able to get ahold of the technical service guide, complete with diagrams, for this unit and have been studying it. As you pointed out, I have become aware of the refrigerant circuiting through the FZ evap during a FF call for cooling. It is unusual and not what quite what I am accustomed to in commercial HVAC. I have more reading and studying to do.

 

I'll post back once I get those new thermistors installed and we'll see where we're at on this unit. Again, I appreciate the support everyone had contributed. Thanks Durham Applicance.

 

Rob Giba

Plano TX

[lvasquez11]

Still waiting to hear repair solution 

[RobGiba]

Hi Ivasquez11 - thank you for the follow up. The FZ and FZ-Evap thermistors were on back-order and I just received them the other day. I am hoping that I can arrange the time to install them tomorrow. Once I do get them installed, I will report back with the results. Not much left after replacing them - just a 3-way valve body (the coil was already replaced) and getting into the sealed system. FZ temperature has been fluctuating like crazy. Some mornings the box is 9 to 16 degrees. An hour later after a few openings of the FF side, the FZ temperature jumps all the way up to 29 to 36 degrees. May not see it back down to that 9 to 16 until the next morning. Useless the way it is. I'll report back once those new thermistors are in. As always, thank you!!!.

[DurhamAppliance]

Rapid evap fan motor speed changes is a definite sign you need to replace the fan and the board... BUT this rule applies to GE manufacturered fridges.. my assumption that he diagnosed this machine as a GE is confirmed.

I would call him and arrange to get that board.. great to have as a backup.

What are your ff temps? As previously stated, with this type of loop/3way evap system, refrigerant always enters freezer evap but can route around ff evap when ff is satisfied.

Your description that freezer temps increases when ff doors opens, suggests that both evaps cannot be supported at the same time. Based on this the odds increases that either you have weak compressor, freezer evap failure or extremely slow leak.

But definitely install the thermistors as failed thermistors can create all sorts of strange problems in a Samsung.

Edited November 15, 2015 by DurhamAppliance

[allheights]

just wanna thank Durham for all the great info again and again

[allheights]

i wanna see frost pattern..

[David Jenkins]

Interesting enough, my tech just had one of these Samsung built GE built in units today with same issues. The FR fan is ramping or hunting up and down some, freezer temps were around 18 degrees and the fresh food side is always okay per the customer. He was coming in behind Sears through a home warranty plan after they gave up on it and said they wouldn't return for two weeks. The tech replaced the board because he said it was bad and it made no difference. My tech referred it back to the warranty company to have GE factory tech diagnose issue. My tech is thinking sealed system issue.

Edited November 17, 2015 by appliancedoc68

[allheights]

anybody look at evaporator?

[RobGiba]

Hey appliancedoc68 - I was amazed to see your post regarding the Samsung manufactured GE unit you had your tech on recently. Your description of the problem was exactly 100% of the problem I have with the FZ compartment. In my case, I agreed to having the FZ evap fan motor and the main control board replaced with the result being that the fan still ramps and hunts just as it did before those expensive parts were replaced - made no difference. Frustrating to say the least and $$$$$$.

 

I just received the two new thermistors for the FZ and FZ evap that were back-ordered. Not sure if I'm going to be able to get those in before Thanksgiving but that is the next step for me. If that does not solve the problem, it looks more and more like I have to go into the sealed system.

 

Hello allheights - have not yet visualized the frost pattern on the FZ evap if that's what you're referring to. Pretty major operation to pull that evap down for visual as it's all packaged with the fan motor and up in the machine compartment. Figured I do this when I pull it apart to install the new FZ evap thermistor.

 

For now, we continue to live without a freezer in the house. It's amazing my better half has not yet filed for divorce! Thank you to all who have contributed over the past weeks. I've learned in the process and you cannot put a value on that. I'll post back once those new thermistors are in.

 

Rob Giba 

[Lighthouse]

RobGiba,

 

You shouldn't have to be waiting for parts on backorder with 2 different supply houses (Appliance Parts Depot & 1st Servall) having stores (3 total) close to you. 2 are by Love Field and another in Mesquite.

[RobGiba]

Quick update for the forum,

 

Finally had the opportunity to dig into this machine and try to get the FZ Cabinet and FZ Evap thermistors replaced. I was able to get the FZ Evap thermistor replaced. Getting to it was another story. 4-hours into the bowels of this machine to remove the evap and get to the thermistor. The replacement thermistor (WR50X10056) which is the OEM part number from the service manual was about 1-foot shorter on the cable. Fortunately the wire hardness inside the unit was bundled and able to make up the difference.

 

The FZ cabinet thermistor was another story. The OEM part number from the service manual calls for a WR50X10058. According to Appliancepartspros where I purchased this part as well as some other sites, this part has been replaced by WR50X23071, which is what was sent to me. Problem is, WR50X23071 is also about a foot or more short on the cable and in this case, it plugs right into the top cabinet connector, therefore there is no harness to make up the difference. This part will not work unless it was spliced it and I do not feel comfortable splicing a themistor cable. I am at a loss as to why the replacement part number does not match the length needed for the application. FRUSTRATING. Looks like I'll be looking locally with the guidance from jjones and try Appliance Parts Depot or 1st Servall to see if I can get the correct part with the correct length cable. 

 

I'll update when I have the correct part. If anyone has some idea about the incompatible replacement thermistor described above, let me know your thoughts. As always thanks guys.

 

Rob Giba.

[BradE]

For GE I always use the Part number: WR55X10025

and they have to be spliced in. As long as you use a bell connector and fill it with silicone there should be no issues with splicing one in. Edited December 10, 2015 by BEdwards

[allheights]

cut close to sensor and splice..

[electro_doc]

Yeah, I couldn't imagine trying to string the wire all the way to connect it.  Splice it in, by far the best way.

 

Doc

[DurhamAppliance]

Come on guys... this is a Samsung Built GE.... are y'all just blindly advising without looking up the model number or reading the entire thread?

this is the actual part.. usually no splicing needed if used as a defrost sensor

Part number: AP4136842

Edited December 11, 2015 by DurhamAppliance

[electro_doc]

yeah Durham I just assumed it was a GE.  Nice catch.  The ones with these in the freezer that I've done do just plug in.  I don't know about putting it in the fridge, I haven't done one there yet, assuming it has one and takes this one

 

thanks

 

Doc