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Maytag PAV2200AWW Thermal Shutdown


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19 replies to this topic

#1 CzPils

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Posted 22 May 2005 - 10:35 AM

Washer was purchased new in the fall of 1998 (it was a cloudy day, although pleasant). We've had no problems until recently.

All starts of the motor seem to be accompanied by a loud buzzing/arcing sound. Much worse when the motor is warm.

The washer will start and run through at least the agitate cycle and may or maynot begin the spin/rinse/spin cycles. The failure to start is accompanied by a loud electrical buzzing (electrical arcing?) from the motor for several seconds. The motor must then be allowed to sit for awhile, usually an hour or two, at which point it will run until the next timer instruction to spin and/or rinse, at which point it most likely overheats (again).

The problem seems worse when in the gentle cycle. Overall, the problem has gradually gotten worse over the last several months.

I think that this is probably a motor that is (has?) gone south, but I wonder if there are established resistance values for the field windings/armature/??? that I can check to diagnose this prior to performing shotgun appliantology. If so, what are the values and what points do I test accross?

As an aside, I believe the start capacitor for This Fine Maytag Product to be internal to the motor.

From near Samurai's alma mater,

Scott
Watkinsville, GA

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#2 Samurai Appliance Repair Man

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Posted 22 May 2005 - 04:34 PM

If the start capacitor (if so equipped) tests good and your supply voltage to the motor including the start winding, is good, then based on your description, the motor is going bad.

I have seen a number of these washers where the motor fails to start at all, just hums. The uninitiated would simply replace the motor, but later drink deeply of the foul waters of disappointment. A closer examination using the trusty multimeter would reveal that the timer is actually the problem-- not sending voltage to the motor's start winding. This story may have application in your case if you're getting junk voltage (anything significantly less than 120vac, nominal) to the start winding.

#3 CzPils

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Posted 22 May 2005 - 05:18 PM

I've tried to attach the schematic... I should check for 120VAC to the start winding at leads 2 (motor start spin)or 4 (motor start agitate) to eliminate the timer???

To test the start capacitor I should test impedence across points 2 - 4 of the motor?

I ran it today with no load in an attempt to see if perhaps the transmission or pump were to be implicated - with the V belt disconnected the motor made it through a full cycle without stopping. However, it was so hot to the touch that I couldn't hold my hand against it. Normal?

I choose to not drink of the foul waters - make mine beer, heavy on the hops...

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#4 Samurai Appliance Repair Man

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Posted 22 May 2005 - 05:32 PM

[user=840]CzPils[/user] wrote:

I've tried to attach the schematic...


You did. Good work.

I should check for 120VAC to the start winding at leads 2 (motor start spin)or 4 (motor start agitate) to eliminate the timer???


Between pin 4 and ground.

To test the start capacitor I should test impedence across points 2 - 4 of the motor?


Isn't this capacitor a discreet component? Should be separately replaceable, in which case it can be tested by simply pulling the leads off of it and testing it directly with your meter.

I ran it today with no load in an attempt to see if perhaps the transmission or pump were to be implicated - with the V belt disconnected the motor made it through a full cycle without stopping. However, it was so hot to the touch that I couldn't hold my hand against it. Normal?


No, the motor should not get that hot. This is usually a good indication of a motor that's drawing too much current and overheating, not long for this world.

I choose to not drink of the foul waters - make mine beer, heavy on the hops...


Mine, too!

#5 CzPils

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Posted 25 May 2005 - 02:21 AM

Meanwhile, back at the ranch...

[user=1]Samurai Appliance Repair Man[/user] wrote:

[user=840]CzPils[/user] wrote:

I should check for 120VAC to the start winding at leads 2 (motor start spin)or 4 (motor start agitate) to eliminate the timer???"

>"Between pin 4 and ground.


I measured voltages to the motor at the wash, spin, rinse and final spin points in the wash cycle at the connector plug. Referring to our schematic, I get the following voltages into the motor at the following test points, relative to ground:

Line voltage at outlet - 120VAC
Points 1, 3, 4 - 120V
Point P - <0.1V
Point 5 - 34V
Point 2 - 0V

Voltages were measured at 4 discreet points in the cycle and were the same at all 4 "times".

It would appear to the neophyte (me) that proper voltages are getting to the motor to start it. I am troubled with furrowed brow over the 34V to point 5 (motor slow). Could this be Big Trouble in Little Motor? Recall that the motor is getting overly hot with respect to time (dH/dt). Could the 34V being applied, be implicated in this, and therefore require a new timer as well?

To test the start capacitor I should test impedence across points 2 - 4 of the motor?"

>"Isn't this capacitor a discreet component? Should be separately replaceable, in which case it can be tested by simply pulling the leads off of it and testing it directly with your meter.


Methinks that this is a split-phase motor, therefore, no capacitor. The centrifigul start switch appears to be working properly on start. eg; it has continuity across contacts prior to start and contacts open upon starting.


I ran it today with no load in an attempt to see if perhaps the transmission or pump were to be implicated - with the V belt disconnected the motor made it through a full cycle without stopping. However, it was so hot to the touch that I couldn't hold my hand against it. Normal?"

>"No, the motor should not get that hot. This is usually a good indication of a motor that's drawing too much current and overheating, not long for this world.


I tried to connect my VOM in series in the line feeding the timer in an effort to measure current draw. No workey. Any Pearls of Wisdom, Master?

I choose to not drink of the foul waters - make mine beer, heavy on the hops...


Mine, too!



#6 Samurai Appliance Repair Man

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Posted 25 May 2005 - 04:30 AM

Good report!  Double check  your voltage at Point 5-- that 34V is what we call "junk voltage" and is usually the result of a bad switch contact or bad wire connection.  If you're still getting 34v at Point 5, follow that GRN-BLK wire that's attached to it back up to pin 62 in the timer and see if you're getting that there.  Be sure you're measuring this voltage with slow speed selected. 

And here's a trick:  you don't even need the harness connector attached to the motor to make these tests, since we're only interested in voltage. 

Don't bother measuring the current draw on the timer-- that doesn't tell us anything useful. 

 


#7 CzPils

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Posted 25 May 2005 - 05:44 AM

[user=1]Samurai Appliance Repair Man[/user] wrote:

Good report! Double check your voltage at Point 5-- that 34V is what we call "junk voltage" and is usually the result of a bad switch contact or bad wire connection. If you're still getting 34v at Point 5, follow that GRN-BLK wire that's attached to it back up to pin 62 in the timer and see if you're getting that there. Be sure you're measuring this voltage with slow speed selected.

And here's a trick: you don't even need the harness connector attached to the motor to make these tests, since we're only interested in voltage.

Don't bother measuring the current draw on the timer-- that doesn't tell us anything useful.



The 34V was measured while high speed was selected. It was measured at one point each, within the four segments of the 0 - 120° timer cycle, where the motor should be getting voltage. eg; pause segments excluded. Does the 34v mean anything while in high speed? Is it detrimental to the motor or is that normal?



#8 Samurai Appliance Repair Man

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Posted 25 May 2005 - 05:48 AM

Make the measurement on slow speed. 

#9 CzPils

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Posted 27 May 2005 - 03:56 PM

[user=840]CzPils[/user] wrote:

[user=1]Samurai Appliance Repair Man[/user] wrote:
Good report! Double check your voltage at Point 5-- that 34V is what we call "junk voltage" and is usually the result of a bad switch contact or bad wire connection. If you're still getting 34v at Point 5, follow that GRN-BLK wire that's attached to it back up to pin 62 in the timer and see if you're getting that there. Be sure you're measuring this voltage with slow speed selected.

Verified. It measures the same, 34V at pin 62.

Make the measurement on slow speed.


Took voltage measurements for all three wash cycles (Regular, Gentle and Permanent Press) and tabulated them. The regular and permanent press voltages are identical throughout their respective cycles. The gentle cycle is different, as one would expect. The tabulated voltages can be seen in the attachment.

What now?

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#10 Samurai Appliance Repair Man

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Posted 28 May 2005 - 04:14 AM

Very scholarly tabulation of your measurements.  Are you a fellow Ag.E. alumnus from UGA?

The presence of the junk voltage bugs me and I want to eliminate the possibility that we're just reading the drop across the unused coil while the motor is running.  Could you repeat the junk voltage measurements but with the motor wiring harness removed?  If the junk voltage disappears, then we conclude that the motor needs to be replaced.  If the junk voltage remains, then the timer is the culprit.


#11 The Seven

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Posted 28 May 2005 - 05:38 AM

CzPils,
According to the schematic, No 1 (white-yellow) should be always at 0 volt because it is connected to "P" terminal via a thermal cut-out inside the motor. No 1 will only have 120 volt if the thermal cut-out is open-circuited.

Sounds that you have a "bad" thermal cut-out in the motor.
The Seven

#12 CzPils

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Posted 28 May 2005 - 09:52 AM

[user=1]Samurai Appliance Repair Man[/user] wrote:

Very scholarly tabulation of your measurements.  Are you a fellow Ag.E. alumnus from UGA?

The presence of the junk voltage bugs me and I want to eliminate the
possibility that we're just reading the drop across the unused coil
while the motor is running.  Could you repeat the junk voltage
measurements but with the motor wiring harness removed?  If the
junk voltage disappears, then we conclude that the motor needs to be
replaced.  If the junk voltage remains, then the timer is the
culprit.


Nope - Chemistry from the College of Charleston. Analytical chemist by
training. We've been in Athens about 16 months. Tabulation and Excel
were the easy way out.

All voltages have been measured with the harness disconnected from the
motor. I hope this hasn't been a source of confusion, thinking that the
motor was involved in the picture, as far as voltage measurements are
concerned.  Esentially what we're looking at are voltages coming
out of the timer and terminating at the (disconnected) connector to the
motor.

I can't help but believe this motor is bad, as hot as it gets. The
timer may be bad also, somehow causing the motor to overheat, but with
the horrendous noise this thing makes when it starts, something is
wrong with the motor. The field windings have <4ohms resistance (if
I remember correctly), so I don't think that's the problem. Gut instict
has said bad brushes, (arcing electrical sound on startup) but they
seem non-existant or non-replaceable. The motor bushing felts have been
oiled previously and the armature seems to spin freely enough.

Should I seek adventure and take readings while the motor is running?
Would this help with the diagnostics at all? Just give me the word...




#13 Samurai Appliance Repair Man

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Posted 28 May 2005 - 11:41 AM

[user=840]CzPils[/user] wrote:

All voltages have been measured with the harness disconnected from the
motor. I hope this hasn't been a source of confusion, thinking that the
motor was involved in the picture, as far as voltage measurements are
concerned.  Esentially what we're looking at are voltages coming
out of the timer and terminating at the (disconnected) connector to the
motor.

 

Good, let's repeat the junk voltage measurements but with the harness connected to the motor. 

I can't help but believe this motor is bad, as hot as it gets. The
timer may be bad also, somehow causing the motor to overheat, but with
the horrendous noise this thing makes when it starts, something is
wrong with the motor.

If the motor is also getting significant junk voltage to its other winding while running, this will absolutely cause it to overheat. 

Note to The Seven:  the voltage he recorded at P is de minimus and does not indicate anything unusual.  If the thermal cut out failed open, the motor could not even try to start because its current return path would be interrupted.





#14 CzPils

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Posted 28 May 2005 - 12:45 PM

OK - egg on face here...

With the harness disconnected, I was using the motor connector to
relate a pin number to the wiring harness, which I discovered you CAN'T
DO...

What I was calling V, 1, 3 and 2 are actually the wires from the timer
that correlate to 1, 3, 2 and ground (wht/yllw, yllw, blue, funky
green, respectively) on the motor.

The revised table is attached.

Some of the junk voltage at 5 is lessened while running.

Want gentle cycle readings/more regular cycle?

I also have a ladder wiring diagram, would that help?

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#15 Samurai Appliance Repair Man

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Posted 28 May 2005 - 01:25 PM

Ok, this seems to me that the motor is the culprit here.  Not sure why you're getting the junk voltage with the harness disconnected but the fact that it virtually disappears with the harness connected makes me think this is normal for this washer.  So, concluding that the voltages to the motor are normal, this takes the timer off the hook as a suspect and exposes the motor as the culprit.

#16 The Seven

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Posted 28 May 2005 - 05:56 PM

CzPils
I was a bit confused about your 1st data table and its measured condition.

It is much clearer from the revised data.
"The voltages with motor running" shows that the thermal cut-off should not be the cause.

If you suspect the motor is bad, you could bench test the motor alone. Will give you detailed bench test if you want to do it?

The voltages (motor harness disconnected) in the "gentle" cycle seem not quite right. If these readings are correct, there are "bad" contacts in the timer.
"5" should read about 120 volt for wash/rinse/spin .
"2" should read about 120 volt for wash/rinse/spin.
Please check these readings again to make sure.

It seems that you are using digital meter to measure the voltages. The internal resistance of the digital meter is about 10 meg ohm.
So a small leaky of about 3 meg ohm in the open-contact will give you a junk voltage of about 30 volt with the motor disconnected. This junk voltage will read nearly zero if the motor is connected.





The Seven

#17 CzPils

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 12:57 PM

The Seven,

Go ahead and post directions on bench testing the motor. I'll verify the gentle cycle voltages at 5 and 2 in the meantime.

Would an analog meter be better/different than digital in diagnosing this? I've got one of each available.


#18 The Seven

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Posted 01 June 2005 - 10:54 PM

CzPils,
Bench test of your motor.
a) Disconnect all the wiring of the motor from the rest of washer.
b) Prepare a fexible 15A cable and plug. Black wire to "Line (120V)" of the plug. White wire to "Neutral (0V). Green wire to "Ground".
c) The other end of Green wire to the chasis of the motor.
d) Test for high speed:
(1) White wire to #P of motor.
(2)Black wire to #3 and # 4. Join #2 to #1.
(3) Plug in 120V socket and the motor should run at high speed.
e) Test for high speed in reverse direction:
(1) White wire to #P of motor.
(2)Black wire to #3 and # 2. Join #4 to #1.
(3) Plug in 120V socket and the motor should run at high speed in reverse direction.
e) Test for low speed:
(1) White wire to #P of motor.
(2)Black wire to #5 and # 4. Join #2 to #1.
(3) Plug in 120V socket and the motor should run at a lower speed.

NOTE: Always unplug the 15A cable before making any connection. The Bench Test should be carried with the greatest precaution and at your risk.

An analog voltmeter has a much lower internal resistace (say about 400 kilo ohm) at 200 volt-range. So the junk voltage as read will be a few volts.

The Seven

#19 CzPils

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 07:53 AM

The end to this story is that the motor was replaced and the washer continued to work without fail for about another 15 months. At that time my wife claims she was very nearly decapitated by the lid which had decided it no longer desired to stay in the fully open position.

Very much like a Stephen King novel... Christine the Washer was replaced by a front loader when noises began emanating from her transmission.





#20 Samurai Appliance Repair Man

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 08:41 AM

[user=840]CzPils[/user] wrote:

Christine the Washer was replaced by a front loader when noises began emanating from her transmission.

Limped along a while longer and then upgraded to today's technology. A wise move and happy ending. Thanks for the followup! :cool:




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