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24VAC Converter Needed for Valve Actuator


ladylaz

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The gear is shot and there's

no mfg on the servo. I can replace the actuator

with almost any rotary tool that runs 12VDC or

120VAC at 1.5A. It is low torque/high rpm. The trouble

is the power supply is 24VAC 3A. I need to transform

it back to 120V or to 12VDC.

Does anyone know of a device to do this? I'm

ready to splice/dice!

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A defunct earth-based heat pump. It was some

experiment from the early days but works. There

is a plumbing part that has to open/close

controlled by a circuit board that also senses

the open/close condition. The motor in it

has brushes that are shot and is so specialized

I cannot find anyone with a replacement...thus:

I see something like a Dremel or a 45-degree drill

with my own bracings/housing replacing it.

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You could just use a 24v AC Relay to turn ON/OFF a 120v AC device....

A 24v AC to 12DC would be a little more difficult ...

How many AMPS would you need at 12v DC ?

A transformer w/ rectifier may be able to give you 12v @ 6 amps, but may be hard to find.

OR you could use the above mentioned Relay to turn on a 12v DC power supply...

OR have the 24v DC Relay turn ON /OFF (and or reverse) a Battery operated Drill (if that's what you were talking about)

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[user=3641]RegUS_PatOff[/user] wrote:

You could just use a 24v AC Relay to turn ON/OFF a 120v AC device....

A 24v AC to 12DC would be a little more difficult ...

How many AMPS would you need at 12v DC ?

A transformer w/ rectifier may be able to give you 12v @ 6 amps, but may be hard to find.

OR you could use the above mentioned Relay to turn on a 12v DC power supply...

OR have the 24v DC Relay turn ON /OFF (and or reverse) a Battery operated Drill (if that's what you were talking about)

Great idea(s):

The old motor has no markings but the gears are super-low torque (can turn with a pinky finger) but need LOTS of RPMS to open/close. I would attach to the existing 3/8 in. gear spindle. If my math is right, what I get that goes to the defunct motor is 24 x 3 = 72W.

If I convert back to 120V I will get 72/120 = .6A

If I convert to 12V I will get 72/12 = 6A if I invert a 120VAC and/or 12VDC to 24VAC transformer.

My fuzzy logic is this: a drill works at 120V 3A+, a Dremel works at 12V 1.5A+. Intuitively, the Dremel will burn up connected to 12VDC 6A, and its own transformer

(if connected to 120VAC at .6A) might not operate; the drill running from 120V .6A might have a similar hope of operating at very little power and do the job.

The circuit board senses open/close and activates the valve many times a day, i.e., it turns the 24VAC on/off frequently and in some cases timed intervals, so the safest idea seems to be your scenario where I run a separate 120VAC line out there and use a 24VAC relay to turn a 120V drill on/off after I fix the rpms in place.

I have never worked with relays except to swap them in my truck. Am I looking for a switching relay, a control relay, etc.? I am imagining some sort of device that takes two 24VAC wires that ties into a 120VAC line like a SPDT gate and creates 120VAC on/off from the 24VAC logic?

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a few things ...

The Drill won't burn up if connected to 12v DC at any amps...

The amps drawn by the Drill is a factor of the supply voltage and the resistance of the Motor.

If connected to 120v, the Drill Motor will burn up.

The Relay would be a switching Relay, (Radio Shack), that would use the existing 24v AC for it's Coil, and then you could use the Relay Contacts that open and close, to switch whatever voltage you have.

Does the Servo Motor need to reverse, or just continue turning to close and open ?

... and what stops the Servo Motor once it is fully opened (or closed) ?  ...  a switch ?

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Actually, the valve HAS to rotate one direction, not reverse, because it opens/closes several valves in sequence.

There is an eight-wire circuit board that outputs 24VAC thirty feet from the device, which is housed and buried.

Two of the wires supply power to the dead rotary motor-actuator. The rest of the wires "report" when the valve gets properly aligned, thus opening/closing the power wires instantly. They do this through some photovoltaic sensor switch near the valve. I discovered this because when I dug this up it wouldn't work except when I darkly shaded it (that was before the motor died).

In other words, the switching part is all taken care-of.

Therefore I would need to build a larger dark housing for a drill to take over the job of the old motor. I have an old 18VDC drill, an old 12VDC Dremel that also has an AC transformer, or an old 120VAC drill.

If I am understanding: I would use the 24VAC power wires to run a relay, thus creating a switching solenoid that would automatically go on/off from the 24VAC wires going on/off.

So lets take a 120VAC drill with its trigger

locked "on" at the proper rpm's as an example. The cord of that drill would need to be wired or plugged into a 120VAC circuit (that I would pull/install separately out there) that is switched on/off by the solenoid/relay which is already receiving the proper instructions.

That is where I am stuck. I have been reading about the millions of relays out there and have a poor concept of the connections:

"you could use the Relay Contacts that open and close, to switch whatever voltage you have."

Sounds like I could take the black wire somewhere in the 120VAC loop containing my "always on drill", cut it, and solder the open ends to two relay output contacts, thus effectively replacing the old motor?

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yes, something like this one

click on picture

175565.jpg

another thought, how much does the drill turn after power is turned OFF??

would that be a problem ?

 

can you post a picture of the bad servo motor ?

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First: your help is greatly appreciated.

#1

Answer has me jumping for joy. Can't wait to order/try it.

#2

Not sure. I am assuming the relay you show is for 120AC so that is the drill we are talking about. It is an old Skill drill/drive, but if it works I might get a cheap lightweight new one instead.

#3

I think the failed motor has electronic brakes (two of the 8 wires do that), however the pressure of the water, once open, is the highest torque point of the operation so that ought to stop it in place...so a few extra rpms will barley move it. I am guessing the old motor spun around 500-800 rpm, and measuring the pressure needed to turn the spindle with a wrench seems to max at about 100 in/lbs.

#4

The whole thing is down a hole. I have to work on it with elongated needle nose pliers. A pic would be not-so-helpful as it would be top-down and see the bracings. I have removed it once to replace plumbing gaskets and it was rough, so I would rather wait until I have to do it again. I can remove the brush easily and take a pic sideways if that would help. It is like a spinning cylinder with a gear spindle on the bottom.

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The Coil of the Relay is 24v AC, as mentioned in the description.

The (separate) contacts (switches) can handle any voltage up to 250v .. whatever you want to use it for ...

so... how many wires to the servo motor ?

What is this servo motor part of ?   (model / brand)

 

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The motor sits atop a multi-port water valve that is part of a heating/cooling geothermal loop. There is a metal box containing a circuit board on the wall of the house that is also non-descript except for a knob to activate it.

The furnace/A-C combo looks like a regular beige metal HVAC box except it has lots of extra copper in foam insulation running everywhere. It supplements a conventional system through common ductwork, and has no logo/distinguishable markings. The control is a Honeywell thermostat.

The person who built this house in the 70's was getting a PhD in architecture and did all kinds of experimental things with heat/light/etc. Things left over in the barn/workshop are vats of mysterious fittings, etc. The neighbors told me his name but I can't track him down. I haven't even been able to find the local who serviced the A/C for the second family who lived here either.

The circuit terminates in a hole in the ground outside my well house. The hole is about a foot wide and cased with PVC. There are no markings on the motor, the valve, or soft metal bracing. I have searched the internet for anything like it, and took the brush to an old-timer in town who has a hangar full of motor parts. He told me it is some custom build and I'll never see another one. One day when I get a leak I intend to open the HVAC unit. Unfortunately it is in the attic (there are no basements around here). It is cramped space and I fell through the floor there while sealing ducts 6 years ago and prefer not to tempt fate prematurely.

I have dug around looking for loops and extra pipes because I was thinking I might get away with running a pipe to the swimming pool the second owners put in (for cheap heat, but I realized that was idiotic without a second transfer mechanism), but I can't find any anyway; I think this might be a vertical system.

I'm getting long-winded here so I'll answer your question:

2 wires only. Motor spins counter-clockwise.

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Okay!!

Real excited. Relay came today via Pony Express (which cost

more than the product...sign of the times).

Attached is my rendition of the what I am going to do before

I blow something up.

I put red dots on the contacts I intend to attach a hot (black) 120VAC

wire I have cut (two leads from black back to black) on an ungrounded

panel circuit that is always on.

The blue dots are for the blades I intend to put the (2) 24VAC 3A

wires that turn themselves on and off.

I mention this because the product came with no schematics and I

couldn't find any on the web. However, and tell me if I have blundered:

the listing on the side of the relay reads like this:

1         50/60hz

2         10A 240V~

3         10A 24V =

4         12A 240VAC

5         12A  30VDC

So I would be using position 3 for the input and 4 for the switched output.

Of course this assumption that the listing corresponds to the rows of blades

may be completely incorrect because there are also switch diagrams in front

of 2 & 3 only, meaning I should be using 3 and 2 instead of 3 and 4, but it

looks like position 2 is for DC?

I intend to crimp some old metal sleeve contacts onto the wires for these

blades. What do you think so far?  I guess it migh be safest to test first

and see where the switching goes with a multimeter?

post-30761-129045113804_thumb.jpg

post-30761-129045114609_thumb.jpg

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Don't try to hook anything up until you know for sure what is what with your relay.

Did you order it on at link RegUs gave you?  If so at that same page there is a link to a PDF file that has the specs on the relay.

You didn't put the part number that you order so I can't tell you what is what you will have to look at the data sheet for the relays here:

http://www.jameco.com/Jameco/Products/ProdDS/175565.pdf

I do know for sure the two terminals orientated in different directions then the rest and probably labeled 7 & 8 are for the 24VDC coil that will switch the contacts closed.

It looks like the actual pinout for the relay is printed on top of the relay case.  That is what you need to go by.  You will only need to use two of the six switched terminals to send 120 volts power to your motor.    120 volts coming in on terminal 5 or 6 then the 120 volts back out to the motor will go to the N.O. (Normally Open) contact 3 or 4, (so you will have your 120 volt power line switched between terminals 5&3 or 6&4), if this is a LB2 style relay).

When 24VDC is supplied to the coil the N.O contact will be pulled closed and send the power to your motor.

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OK. Thanks for the reply. I probably should have seen

this, and you folks are very indulgant of me.

I got it exactly on the link RegUs provided.

I had that pdf but believe it or not I could not see any terminal

numbers until you got me to re-download it...I blew it way up. I also

could not see the schematic on top of the unit since it is so faint and

clear...had to get a magnifier in high light...thanks. The

pdf seemed to be for many models. I attached the schematic that

is on top of mine: it appears to be an LB2. It says: 175565.

Trouble was the pdf listed the terminals for the LB1 only, and for 1-6.

It gives pin 3 as "Coil Nominal Voltage" and 4 as the same with

and AC/DC subcategory. That, the fact that "wiring" is spelled

"wring",  and all the Chinese threw me a curve.

If I understand what you said and the schematic, I can do the following:

1) run the 24VAC two-wire control lines to #7 & #8

2)open the hot wire from a 120VAC circuit and attach the side closest

to the power source to #6, then the other closest to the motor to #4.

3)turn my motor and breakers on and watch from a distance (my

standard practise, often with a welding helmet on).

post-30761-129045113814_thumb.jpg

post-30761-129045114616_thumb.jpg

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Sounds right to me............. I don't know why you had such a hard time reading the diagram printed on top of your actual relay. 

I could even read a good part of it in reverse and upside down reflecting thru the side of the relay case in your picture.

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Thanks for the direction. The case is clear and full of white components (made me almost miss the larger print, too.) The camera was in ultra-macro mode (5mm away) and (good point!) it was way more visible through the side. But probably it is just me: I am just getting used to reading glasses, and

I am forgetting if I don't use them for other things than reading I may miss a whole world I mistakenly assume I still see.

I will report the results of this engineering experiment soon. Thanks for being patient!

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[user=30761]ladylaz[/user] wrote:

... I am just getting used to reading glasses, and

I am forgetting if I don't use them for other things than reading I may miss a whole world I mistakenly assume I still see..

sometimes :ooo: My eyesight isn't as good as it once was, either 

(see RegUS_PatOff

)

 

thanks, Willie  :) , I somehow missed the post from Monday ...

and a second opinion / view is always welcome ...

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Sorry to report my findings.

I think the relay is wired wrong.

I tried both 6&4 and 5&3 in combo with the hot wire.

The relay buzzes and nothing closes. Actually,

it is persistent soft clicking, like a wet starter

solenoid in my old truck, only faster.

When I move to 5&1 or 6&2 the power is there

but of course no switching action. I have verified

it is 24VAC...it runs a little high...like 24.8VAC.

I have also reversed the 7&8 24VAC power feeds and the

same thing happens. The power is there; it's the switching

that doesn't move.

Maybe I should have used white/black on 5/6 from the 120

supply and back to 3/4 on the motor side instead

of one hot wire?

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My mistake ...

in all the confusion, I linked you to a 24v DC Relay ..

you need a 24v AC Relay (not very common)

You could use a Bridge Rectifier Diode to convert your 24v AC to 24v DC for the Coil Voltage...

Radio Shack $ 1.19

click on picture

pRS1C-2160491t98.jpg

may also need this Capacitor

Radio Shack $ 1.59

click on picture

pRS1C-2264679t98.jpg

OR this 24v AC Relay  (different pin-out)

click on picture

282280.jpg

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Okay, thanks.

Unfortunately I built a whole lot of spade connections

to everything but I think I can splice and dice some

more to get this going or shoot it in the head.

I went to town this morning and got both items.

I am now wearing my best reading glasses and what

the schematic seems to indicate is:

1)What I have attached to terminals 7 & 8 should

now be attached to the diagonal AC inputs on the rectifier.

2)The other pair of rectifier outputs should then go to 7 & 8.

It would appear I have to solder them on.

3)Before I do, there is the capacitor "maybe". I am guessing

since the capacitor has no schematic (and I can only guess): it sits

between the rectifier and 7 or 8?

Does this seem right?

Fortunately it is only going to be in the 80's tomorrow and

this has put me in the mood for a Sol with lemon...I am going out

to pick one now and patiently await direction...

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24v AC goes into Diode Bridge connections   ~  ~

diode bridge output + - goes to Relay 7 & 8 (either way)

Capacitor goes across Diode output + to +    - to  -

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