Detergent residue & dirty dishes? Bosch SHU66C0 dishwasher

[Frozennorth]

Dishwasher was installed 3/2004, worked great for a while and seemingly performance has gradually deteriorated. 

First thought (a year ago?) was that I was using a new detergent.  So I switched again, eventually back to the original stuff, but I still have the problem. 

Symptoms now are that there is a lot of detergent residue left after the cycle finishes; the stainless steel looks permanently (?) discolored in places; my silverplate gets covered with black blotches after a wash; and the dishes don't get clean even though I all but wash them before loading. 

Yesterday I cleaned out the dishwasher, including cleaning off the cooked-on detergent residue, including lots in & around the dispenser (thinking that might keep it from working properly), checked that the sprayers were not clogged, cleaned the filters, all that obvious housekeeping kind of stuff.  Then I ran it empty (no detergent just rinse agent once).

Then today I loaded it up (properly etc.), put in some detergent, and ran it on the regular cycle.  It starts at 81, and when it reached 50 I opened it up to see how things looked.  The detergent dispenser was open and the (originally dry) detergent was still ALL sitting in the cup, just damp enough to stick together.  ???

I then let it run to the end.  The detergent was gone from the cup, except for heavy cooked-on residue.  There was detergent residue on the inside of the door.  Black on the silverplate didn't seem as bad as sometimes, and the dishes not as dirty as sometimes, but, you can see that I have gotten used to this fairly grungy situation when I open 'er up at the end.

The only part still under warranty is the controller board.

My kitchen sink has a really low flow rate (both hot & cold) for some reason - but from the fact that it worked at first, and what I understand of how dishwashers work, i.e. they wait until the water reaches a certain level, not a certain amount of time - right? - I assume that's not related.

There is a little water left in the bottom of the dishwasher (sump?), which I either didn't notice at first or is something that started happening later.

Those are all the symptoms I have noticed so far.

I found your website when I googled bosch dishwasher and got the URL for the info on the Bosch diagnotics - unfortunately the diagnostic procedure for my model (SHU66) wasn't there, and I'm wondering if I should try that next, if you have that information available to provide to me.

I phoned a local authorized Bosch repair person, who seems to be a sole proprietor type guy (i.e. not someone employed by an appliance company - I refuse to go back to the idiots I bought the bosch from!), and actually I wouldn't at all mind having him over for a service call if I can't figure out the problem ... but I thought it would be worth a try and at a minimum I will learn something so that I won't be quite the helpless ninny when he does show up!

Thanks in advance for your help...

Sara B. - Edmonton AB (my windows messenger username is momsahib)

[Samurai Appliance Repair Man]

Hi Sara, in the Bosch's, most of the time, poor washing problems in a dishwasher are caused by not cleaning out the sump filters-- most customer don't even know they exist! Twist and remove the filter, then remove the gookus from the right sideof the sump where water enters the circulation pump impeller. If gookus has jammed the impeller, then we need to talk about pulling the dishwasher out... but I don't think we're there yet.

[Frozennorth]

Uhh ... I duly poked around "down there" but did not find a sump filter - if what you mean is something other than what the Bosch manual calls the "fine filter" and "micro filter."  (These are so obvious that even I can find them... clearly meant for even the dullest end-user housewife to be able to find & clean)

(User manual available at http://www.bshextranet.com/files/techtoolbox/SHX-V56-57Cuc(en-fr-sp).pdf , or if that doesn't work, can be gotten from http://www.boschappliances.com/site_tools/documents.cfm for my model no.)

Sump area is pretty grotty, though... every thing I find down there seems to be one hard plastic part bolted down (or several parts bolted together & down) ... nothing very obviously can be turned or pulled out or anything.  However one would not want to underestimate my lack of aptitude for this sort of thing.

Sara B.

 

[Samurai Appliance Repair Man]

Ok, well I can tell you're way ahead of the average grasshopper. Let's take this one to 11.

I've attached a page from the genuine, no-cheap-imitations-here Bosch Service Manual, capital "S" and capital "M." It goes through a whole riot act of things to check for poor washing complaints.

Lemme know how you go.

Bosch_dw_poor_cleaning.pdf

[Frozennorth]

Taking this one item at a time:

1.  Detergent - Electrosol powder.  Should be OK.

2.  Spray arms - removed & inspected (visual, ran water thru), look OK.

3.  Filter locked down - well, now they are (I am referring to the micro & macro filters that the Bosch user manual talks about).  I did find sharp stuff in the bottom of the sump (if that isn't redundant) - rusted staple (?), chip from dinnerware.  So at some time in the past, they weren't locked down.  The rest of the crud down there is just a kind of brown film smeared on some of the surfaces, not thick and not uniform. Just gross.  Poked into the two round tube-like things that head in/out from the sump, presumably one is the impeller inlet.  Didn't feel any obvious debris there or signs of damage or anything like that.

4.  Drain hose behind dishwasher - haven't taken dishwasher out to check this.

5.  Sink air gap - ditto. 

6.  Dispense actuator working? - well, the dispenser open when I check inside the dishwasher during a cycle.  So actuator is OK I presume.

7.  Too much detergent? - filling dispenser halfway up the cup for reg cycle - that should be OK.

BTW while rooting around under my sink for rubber gloves (so I can wash my dishes by hand, natch), I noticed another problem, not with the dishwasher but with the garburator,

Water and crud are leaking from between the sink and the garburator.  I loosened the ring that snugs the Garb up to the sink to check the gaskets.  There are two:  one that disintegrated (cardboardish) and a very thin "rubber" one that now refuses to seat as it is stretched/blown out. 

Eyeballing the Garb, it looks reasonably straightforward to uninstall.  (1) turn off the electricity (2) remove the hoseclamp that secures the dishwasher drain hose (anyway it's a hose that comes from the dishwasher area) (3) unscrew the ring that connects it to the main drainpipe and (4) unscrew it from the underside of the sink.  whereupon the Garb should come free of the sink (the metal insert thing) and I should be able to slip the new gaskets onto the Garb or ring.  And then reverse the procedure to reinstall. 

Looks like a two person job (at least for me) - one person to handle the Garb and another to slip on the gaskets.

Questions:

1.  Are the two gaskets generic like I can buy them at my local home improvement big box store??? 

2.  Is the uninstall/reinstall of the Garb straightforward as it appears, or is there anything I need to know /beware of??? 

Come to think of it ... the Garb leaked right from day 1 when the plumber (re)installed it.  This was at the very end of our 2004 kitchen reno, and the Garb was the ONLY item I didn't replace in the entire kitchen.  It didn't leak very much and I had bigger fish to fry at the time.  Now I wonder (1) was that plumber really such a bonehead that he used the old gaskets (2) if he used new gaskets, is there something else wrong? (like with the inserty metal ring-tube thing that hangs the GArb from teh sink, that you see the top of as the silver ring around the sink drain?) and the biggie:

(3) was this the same plumber that hooked up the dishwasher (funny)!?!

Sara B.

P.S. I used to write technical manuals (for electronic test equipment), so, I sound WAAAY more competent on paper than in the busted-knuckle world.  Just something to keep in mind... slb

[Samurai Appliance Repair Man]

Once upon a time, I had a head scratcher on one of these Bosch dishwashers; same symptom as you're having-- gookus left on dishes. After rooting around in my most professional way and several false starts, I just happened to discover that every time the disposal ran, gookus water would back all the way up into the dishwasher. The only way that could happen, I surmised during one of my rare moments of lucidity, was if there was no riser loop in dishwashers drain hose so ca-ca water could just flow back into the dishwasher basin. Theoretically, there's a check valve in the dishwasher that should prevent this and it did... for a while. That's why the problem didn't appear from day one. Can you snatch this pebble from my hand, grasshopper?

As for your disposal, the cardboard gasket shouldn't even be there-- it's there for shipping and should be removed when the disposal is installed. They're easy, if a little awkward to remove. Start by disconnecting the drain pipe from the disposal.

If you look at the neck just above the disposal, you'll see a ring with three equally-spaced curled protrusions-- those are for your fingers to grab on to so you can turn the ring to release the disposal, righty-tighy, lefty-loosey. They can be very difficult to turn and it's common to need a large screwdriver to lever-start the turning. Once it's turned all the way, watch out! The disposal will drop like a rock. It's a very awkward working position and, while it's not physically difficult, the awkward work angle exposes your lower back to injury. Speaking as someone with horrendous back problems and a survivor of two back surgeries, this is something of which you want to be keenly aware.

Once it's out, you'll need to sand down and clean up the opening in the sink. You may need to replace the rubber gasket. Post a photo or two can maybe I can give a better assessment.

[Frozennorth]

1.  So (reading between the lines - ?) to replace the gasket on the Garb, I need only disconnect it from the drain pipe and from the sink (and turn of the lectricity), don't need to undo the hose clamp that attaches the dishwasher drain tube?

2.  Back problems!?!  Bummer!  Me too actually.  I'll rig something for the Garb to sit (fall) on and get some suitably young muscular type person to wrestle with it.

3.  Re theory of backflow from Garb into dishwasher ... I like it ... but, so, ... one way to rule it out would be if gookus appears only when Garb is run (or at least water drained thru the Garb) during dishwasher operation?  Or is there a sort of semi-infinite supply of crud that keeps dribbling into the dishwasher between grinds/flushes?

No ... I haven't actually DONE anything yet:  Zen approach - much meditation before fixing problem with single stroke of sword.  Anyway first I have to buy the gasket and dragoon aforementioned muscular-type person.

Thanks

Sara B.

 

[Samurai Appliance Repair Man]

The dishwasher drain hose connection is less critical-- remove it if it's in the way, but there's little chance you would damage it as you would the garb drain pipe if it weren't disconnected.

one way to rule it out would be if gookus appears only when Garb is run (or at least water drained thru the Garb) during dishwasher operation?

Da tovarish. Specifically, remove micro filter and meta base place, sponge out the basin, and then run the garb with lots of gookus, grotus, and plenty of flush water. Watch or the appearance of soiled flush water in the d/w basin.

[Frozennorth]

"Da tovarisch"... which part of Japan do YOU hail from, Samurai?

BTW I signed up for Xdrive, but when I try to go to the login page I keep getting redirected to a page that says:

Where did you go?  We're handling a lot of requests right now and it looks like yours got lost along the way. Please wait a moment for the Internet to catch up and try again. If you continue to experience this problem, contact your customer support representative for assistance. [WLB 500]

I got this message all yesterday evening and again this evening ... bummer.  Any suggestions?

However today was not entirely without progress.  I made it over to Rona and the nice man in the plumbing dept found the gasket I need for the Garb, for which I paid a whole whopping CAD 1.97 (including GST).  I will meditate on it for a few days before actually doing anything ... single stroke of sword etc. ... I work on the theory that you cannot hurt yourself, destroy anything, or fail, until you actually engage the reality components on the physcial plane.  So!  paraphrasing Alexander Pope, "to err is human; to procrastinate, divine."

Chilled grasshopper (13 C this morning)

[Samurai Appliance Repair Man]

[user=12742]Frozennorth[/user] wrote:

"Da tovarisch"... which part of Japan do YOU hail from, Samurai?

Why, Sapporo, of course! In addition to being the namesake and home brewery of the world-famous beer, it hosts the Consulate General of Russia.

BTW I signed up for Xdrive, but when I try to go to the login page I keep getting redirected to a page that says:

Where did you go?  We're handling a lot of requests right now and it looks like yours got lost along the way. Please wait a moment for the Internet to catch up and try again. If you continue to experience this problem, contact your customer support representative for assistance. [WLB 500]

Xdrive is famous for having brain farts-- try it again. Persevere and ye shall overcome.

BTW, I sent you another access link to your Yahoo email address.

[Frozennorth]

In my glacially slow meditative way, I (and my budo-buddy with the muscles & tools) have replaced the gasket on the garburator. 

Turns out the nitwit (or worse) who installed it "forgot" to put putty/goo/whatever between the metal ring and the sink. 

And come to think of it, the sink is only two years old but the garb is probably 25, so going by the appearance of the gasket, (s)he just put the old one back in rather than spending $1.97 for a new one.

Who cares ... however it's almost certain this same induhvidual installed the dishwasher!

Anyway ... about the dishwasher.  I duly cleaned out the sump and then ran it while shoving gross things down the garb.  No sign of backflow.  Of course this is not 100% conclusive because there could always be particular conditions or timing or types of gross things that would cause it to happen - but, upon reflection I don't think this is the (main) problem.  Because e.g. it doesn't explain why the inside of mugs used for hot chocolate come out of the wash with cocoa stuck to them (even when the cocoa isn't totally dried/caked/backed on).

I also ran the diagnostics (that you start by pressing the two buttons down at the same time and then turning it on etc) and got a 0 (no fault found) code as the result.

Interestingly, during the diagnostic run, the "refill rinse aid" light lit up.  I haven't seen it on since a few months after we got the dishwasher.  I assumed it had burnt out (do LEDs do that as often as other bulbs?), but, no, obviously now that's not the problem.  At one stage I wondered if lack of rinse aid (since I wasn't being reminded to refill it) was why the dishes didn't come out looking so good ... so the gradual deterioration (or so it seemed) in cleaning ability sort of dates back to that.

Another interesting thing was that when I ran the dishwasher empty while grinding stuff in the garb, the detergent dispenser never opened (I hadn't put any detergent in it).  I don't think I have ever opened the dishwasher at the end of the cycle and found it closed before.  Maybe I absentmindedly closed it one of the times I opened the dishwasher to have a gander at what was going on. 

It was also very wet inside, which I think maybe it shouldn't be, given that it has a gasket & all.

When I ran the dishwasher again to see if the dispenser opened, it did.

But I did find myself wondering if the dispenser opens too late.  Mechanically it seems OK - pops right open when I press the latch button - though there is some baked-on detergent still - from detergent left over from the dishwasher not washing/rinsing right getting baked on in the dry cycle, I guess.  I've cleaned most of it off, but there's still a bit left.

BTW the stainless liner doesn't look too bad but does have some marking on it from (looks like) aforementioned baked-on half-dissolved detergent residue.  Yecch!  I'm wondering if someday when (ha ha) I ever get the washing problem fixed I will be able to get it off?  (Can you use CLR on stainless??? and would that work.)

Anyway ... what next, O Sensei?

Frozenhopper

 

[Frozennorth]

P.S. The problem I thought I was having with Xdrive was actually my wireless LAN having digital constipation.  I don't know why.  Well - I guess I do know why, in the sense that I attribute all unexplained network performance issues to demonic possession.  It's fixed now.  slb

[Samurai Appliance Repair Man]

I think the detergent dispenser not opening was just a glitch from messing with the cycle. If it had not been opening all along, I think you would noticed... right?

And it doesn't sound like the problem was backflow of ca-ca water from the disposal. Only two things left: water hardness and the wash pump.

You can roughly gauge the wash pump by placing an 8 oz. glass in the upper rack right side up and starting the d/w. 60 seconds after you hear the wash start, open the d/w, glass should be mostly full. This is a pretty crude test but if there are major problems with the impeller, they'll show up here.

Water hardness: there are inexpensive kits and test strip, usually available at your local hardware store. If not, I can get you a part number for the Maytag kit, one of the best and easiest to use.

[Samurai Appliance Repair Man]

P.S. The Hard Facts About Hard Water: http://fixitnow.com/wp/2003/02/13/appliance-tip-of-the-day-the-hard-facts-about-hard-water/

[Frozennorth]

1.  Isn't hardness - I've lived in places with hard water before and this isn't one of them.

2.  Did the thing with the upright 8oz glass in the upper rack for 60 sec of the wash cycle.  Passed with flying colors - glass was basically full.

3.  Since this now seems to be a healthy happy d/w (???) I thought I would try washing a load of dishes, just for fun.

4.  Ran it on the "regular wash" cycle, which counts down from 80, and it got to 25 without the detergent dispenser popping open.  I'm back to wondering if that has been the problem ... not "not opening", which we would have noticed, but opening late in the cycle.  It seems to me that on a regular wash cycle counting down from 80, the dispenser should be open by 65 at the latest - ???

Puzzledhopper

 

[Frozennorth]

P.S. The not-open dispenser was full of water, which still seems odd to me, since Bosch went to the trouble of designing it with a pretty fancy gasket.  slb

[Samurai Appliance Repair Man]

Yea verily, by the great pot-bellied, buck-toothed, cross-eyed, hare-lipped Buddha, I think you've found the problem! You need a new detergent dispenser assembly. Post your complete model number, found on the model number tag behind bottom kickplates, and I can show you the assembly you need.

[Frozennorth]

I just ran the d/w again, and this time it opened.  Wondering how we know this is a dispenser problem and not a control problem?  (or do we know it's not a control problem because it passed the test program?)

Hoppityhopper

 

[Samurai Appliance Repair Man]

Very unlikely that it's a control board problem. And let's hope it's not-- that's a $200 board vs. a $50 detergent dispenser assembly!

The next step would be to inspect the detergent assembly carefully, look for play and slop in the slide assembly. The latch itself could be sticking, too, but this is harder to discern. Next, you'll remove the outer door panel and look at the electrical connections on the dispenser wax motor. This may or may not reveal anything. If anything looks flakey, you're better off just replacing the entire detergent assembly. You may want to do a few more test runs and verify that the door opens only intermittently.

[Frozennorth]

"Remove the outer door panel"!  You sure know how to scare a gull ...  OK, well, I can do that... it make take me several weeks to get the nerve up, but, what the heck.  At least I now have a d/w that "works" - if you count as "working" someone having to hang around for 10 min after starting it to manually pop the dispenser at the appropriate moment!

OK ... HOW do I remove the outer door panel.  Instructions in one of the Xdrive manuals, or...?

The d/w model no. is SHU66C05UC/14 (and then underneath that FD830400453).

slb

[Samurai Appliance Repair Man]

Piece of pie, tovarish! You'll need a torx driver, I forget which exact size, to remove the several torx screws visible on the inside of the door's perimeter. The Xdrive has a folder of Bosch service manuals, including a training manual which you may find useful. This is waaay easy, don't be intimidated by the task name of, "Remove the outer door panel."

[Frozennorth]

Shouldn't I get ahold of the replacement dispenser before I take the cover off??

slb

[Samurai Appliance Repair Man]

Why? I'm referring to the dishwasher front door panel so you can get a look at the backside of the dispenser. Taking the cover off the dispenser, if that's what you're thinking, can be a fun Chinese puzzle game but is not diagnostically useful.

[Frozennorth]

No I wasn't thinking of going in that way (from the inside).  I was thinking that once I start exploring the innards of the d/w I should have the new dispenser on hand to install ... or am I going inside the d/w to investigate further as to whether I need to replace it? (if that's a sentence) slb

[Samurai Appliance Repair Man]

[user=12742]Frozennorth[/user] wrote:

...am I going inside the d/w to investigate further as to whether I need to replace it?

Da, tovarish.