Tankless Water Heaters II

[kochrk]

I thought I would start a new topic on this and see if there is anymore info out there on Tankless Water Heaters.  Has anybody had any exp. on these?

I have a 3 story, 1600sq ft condo with a shower on the 2nd and 3rd floor.  Less than year old LG Front load LCD Washer/Dryer and a GE SM Dishwasher I use a couple times a week.  Two people.

I'm a computer guy so I am not looking to install, but I have some gift cards for Home Depot coming to me and want to use them to offset the cost.  Just gotta find a decent installer.

Any thoughts or insight as to what brand or size I should be reading about?  Electric.

TIA, Rudy

[Cactus Bob]

just my 2 cents : a tank type water heater will give your family 40 to 50 gallons of clean drinking water if your city system where to go down .if you or your town where to loose there electric for a few days you would be fine .... because of this and the high cost to buy and repair these heaters i will never own one .

[owenmpk]

I have installed 2 tankless HW heaters one in my home and one in my mother-in-laws. In my mother-in-laws the pipeing alone was the same cost as the heater becuase you have to run a larger pipe for a long run from the gas meter to the heater. So this one will have a long payout. The one in my home did not need the large pipe. Both are working fine and we have seen a 1/3 reduction in gas costs in the year they have been installed. I will be installing 2 more at my sons home in the next few months. No hard to install and I am a computer guy also.

[kochrk]

Thanks for the reply, I thought this topic went dead.  I also wondered why there was not more hype about it.  We did lose power 2 weeks ago for 12 hours and I had to get up and take a shower, and I was thinking in the shower I was glad I didn't go for a tankless, but that happens maybe once a year for that kinda time, if that.

I am still up for doing it and it depends on money and when my current tank quits (it's almost 10 years old).  Sounds like I am willing it to quit.

Let me know how the other installs go and maybe we can talk on the phone sometime.  Thanks

[kdog]

You best be investing those "savings" well as the eventual repair expense of the bloated control technology will eventually more than exceed any presumed savings, let alone covering additional installation expenses.

I have looked at several of these units, and though I have never serviced them, my observation is that they look to be equipped with some pretty pricey components.

[telefunkenu47]

 Ill weigh in here for a moment. About once a week I get a call from some guy with a broken product he bought at some big box store or another, and he cant get any body to service it. Usually he had some family member from 100 plus miles away install it, usually WRONG, and now he wants some poor schmuck to come out and solve his problems, in warranty, for the princely sum of 85 bucks or so, IF he gets paid at all. No parts available, except from the mfr, no tech support, unless he wants to spend his day on hold only to have some surly "tech rep" ask him if it is plugged in.

Now,  I sell Rinnai, I purchase it from my local supply house who has a tech training lab, a full inventory of parts on hand 35 miles away. For that price, I help keep more than a few people employed in my community, along with my guys. I generally make 1100 dollars on the job before expenses, insurance,payroll and my 30 years experience and lincesing, not to mention 40,000 dollars worth of rolling equipment,tools and inventory. After all that, I walk away as owner of the company with about 300 bucks. For that, I am now forever responsible for service after the sale. If I cant keep it running, I will replace the unitat no charge. My wholesaler takes good care of me, and I take good care of my customers.

Go ahead, buy that tankless at lowes mart, or whatever, you contribute nothing to your local economy, and deserve what you get when, not if problems erupt.  Pretty soon well all be working at home depot and selling life insurance to each other. Only in America! 

[kochrk]

Hello up there in Maine. I had to grab a Sam Adams and soak that in with this thoughtful Post. I am not sure if this is directly posted toward me, but I have gotten off the "Tankless" path since my electric crapped out for many hours recently and I was still able to take a nice long, hot shower.  I have since used the gift cards online and bought some nice kitchen stuff.

I own, with a partner, a computer business and we are a Union company that assembles desktops and laptops here in the US and our suppliers are in NJ and Mass.  All our support and installation are done here also.  We develop websites and software specific to the Unions from employees in KS, CA and WA.

Not promoting Union as much as "Keep it in America".  Sure, computer components are tough to get "US made" but we do what we can to keep what we do here and we do put food on the table for many US workers considering our small size.

Hopefully I didn't miss your point and thanks for the input.

Rudy

[nickfixit]

[user=15157]telefunkenu47[/user] wrote:

 Now,  I sell Rinnai

What are the advantages of the Rinnai product vs. the Big box units?

Also, are they any special issues using propane? I'm currently using a 2 year old 100 gal electric. Got 6 people, 4 teenagers, in the house.

Nick

[telefunkenu47]

 Hi Nick! Parts availability and tech support. The product line is subject to continuing improvements without changing the entire product line. Electronics are high quality, the company is a subsidiary of Hitachi industries, one of Japans largest. Tech manuals are trasnslated into proper english, tech training and support right here in Portland, Me. There are not alot of whores out there knocking the price down, wholesale prices are fairly standard. I like my wholesalers commitment to service.  I have not too many good things about the Bosch, both technical and parts. When I make a commitment to sell and install a product, I want to know that my supplier has made a commitment as well. This helps the industry in general, myself &  my valued customers in particular. 

[Tinbendr]

This is what I did.  (See attachment .) (Ignore the little wires.  I've got a temperature sensor connected to it.)

I've had two fail in three years.  Cost me $50 each time.

I love it.  I have three teenagers who like to take 30 minute showers.  I probably don't save any money, but the endless hot water is worth it to me.

I installed them myself. (Except for the wiring. I'm a chicksh*t when it comes to wiring.  I called in a professional.)

[kochrk]

Not sure I like Diet MT. Dew, but you most likely don't like my favorite brews.  Great post with the pic.  That would be part of a wiki on what forums are about.  Thanks for sharing what you did and how it works.

[telefunkenu47]

Nice lookin job.Very Cool...

[Mikeypaw]

 I know of two peoplewith tankless water heaters, 1 NG & 1 electric. Both are

happy with it, Tankless has been around since WWII, but not in US till about

6 yrs ago. Electric uses approx same KW as 40-50 gal tank water heater.

Considering one myself, just not sure which and NG not avail out here

except 2 mi straight down.

[RegUS_PatOff]

[user=62060]Mikeypaw[/user] wrote:

I know of two peoplewith tankless water heaters,

how may people in the house ?

what capacity water heater ?

cost ?

location (city/state) ?

[LtSiver]

Both myself and my parents have AquaStar 125NG's. They were american made, and work quite well, even in a power outage. (Natural Gas with pilot) Bosch has since bought Aquastar, and still makes a modified version of the product. Like the Rennai, they require some training to service, though my father installed both of them without too much trouble whilst untrained. The only service required on either of them was mine developed a leak that required a water valve rebuild kit, and was not terribly hard to repair. The Bosch models however require more things than the Aquastar did, (bigger pipe, more money spent for the same heating power, removal of the water governor so you have to buy the bigger model, etc) so you may prefer to go with the rennai. Around here, both are sold through Nu-Way Supply.

[Chris-man]

Hi, dont know if Im addresing tinbendr OR Ikko-Ikki ANd realie Im a year late! But I too have been toying with installing a Tankless as my 50 gal BradfordWhite Electricity hog is gettin old. Ive talked with the company Eemax--theyre in CT, and I live in VT. A local supplier, FW Webb sells them. I think the supplier is reputable. A Q I have is how difficult are they to adjust the 'mixing' so the water is the 'right ' temp? I read the manual and it sounded complicated. and dont they have to be installed low to the floor--below the level of the spigots they serve? Any other tidbits Id appreciate. Thanks.

[Tuan Thai]

I have installed 4 tankless water heaters (3 Noritz and 1 Takagi). All of them are natural gas (NG) models...they seem to have higher gpm ratings than the electric.

The value proposition for tankless is very good; however, I have found one issue I've not been able to find a solution for use with High Efficiency (He) clothes washers. I've heard of similar issues with dishwashers, but I've not directly had any issues myself with Tankless and dishwashers.

The problem:

1) Most of not all tankless manufacturer presents their flowrate information on the tankless as how many gallons per minute (GPM) their units can produce based on temperature rise (how much the unit has to heat the water up by).

2) The High Efficiency washer I'm looking at cares about water PSI, rather than flow-rate. My tankless unit outputs 3-3.5 gpm at the tank (~90 degrees rise) but by the time it gets to the laundry outlet, it drops to 2.5 gpm. This is acceptable flowrate for baths and kitchen use, but the washer errors out.

The tankless is installed (i.e. sunk cost) so it's not worth going back to tank heater.

Any options for the washer?

Edited:

I spoke with Noritz yesterday. They said one option is to install two tankless in parallel (not in series as it would increase wear and tear on the device). The down side is you can only install tankless in series if you have horizontal wall space or enough clearance for the venting; which I do not have. Also, the cost to install two tankless would negate the very reason I went with a tankless - cost savings!

One thought I had was to turn down the temperature setting (less temperature rise = higher gpm output). However, my control settings only allowed me to bring the temperature down to 100 degrees F. That didn't work.

I"m trying one more option before I go with a traditional, dedicated tank just for the washer. I"m going to change out the 1/2 inch copper lines to the laundry faucet to 3/4 inch to give it more volume delivery. I"m hoping that will do the trick. I doubt it will because the NOritz can only output 3 gpm so even if I increase the piping between the heater output to the laundry faucet, it may not help much. I fear I will need to run a separate, dedicated tank heater for the laundry.

Thanks,

EOS

[RegUS_PatOff]

... The High Efficiency washer I'm looking at

I can't see it from here ...

what model number ?

[Tuan Thai]

Tankless water heater is a Noritz NR98 or N-0751M. They use both models numbers interchangeably.

The washer you already sent me links for the manuals - Electrolux EIFLW55H

[owenmpk]

Update on my experience with Bosch tankless hot water heaters

The first one I installed was a Bosch AquaStar 125BO NG outdoor model and it has been an awful product. The problem is that he pilot would not stay lit. Many calls to Bosch, with try this service bulletin then then this bulletin then have cleaning the pilot sensor every 2 months. My mother-in-law just gave up and had a Noritz installed.

We own an AquaStar 250 NG model and it in the wintertime kept erroring and would have to be reset again very poor help from Bosch.

I will NEVER buy or recommend a Bosch tankless hot water heater again as long I am still making journeys around the sun.

[Tuan Thai]

No problems with my Noritz whether installed indoor or outdoor. All units have worked fine with no errors. I do notice that the water output is not as advertised (my unit was advertised at 9, but that is expected because the numbers the present is based on best environment for marketing purpose.

One question that is still outstanding for me (haven't been able to prove, or confirm with Noritz or Electrolux) is whether the tankless affects the Electrolux front load washer. The reason is Electrolux defines it's water requirements is 30 PSI minimum; whereas the Noritz unit defines it's water output in GPM terms. And, Electrolux tech gurus have not given any GPM requirement.