GE PHS920SF1SS Induction Range Not powering up, sort of...

[les_garten]

Hello,

   I have a GE PHS920SF1SS silde in induction range.

I did a cleaning cycle on it for 4 hours.  It completed it.

Let it cool down.  went back next day and there is no Display at all, oven is 100% dead with the exception of the oven light.

I pulled off the controll boards and do not see anything directly blown.

I looked over the power module on the back and do not see anything obvious there.

It is getting 240 volts at the wall receptacle to the range.

Any ideas what to look at next?

[Rhubarb Tau]

I know it's a feature, but so many self-clean cycles end in misery.

Normally I'd suggest checking to Hi-Limit, but the Mini Manual seems to only show a high limit in series with the elements, not interrupting power to the boards.

If you're comfortable taking measurements with the unit live (at your own risk), I'd start by checking for power supplied to the RPSM (relay) board. You should have 120VAC between connector J20 , pin 1 and J21 , pin 5, and you should also have 120VAC between J20-3 and J21-5.

If you'd rather not probe with the unit live, you could unplug the unit and make the check for continuity back to the plug at those same 3 pins (J20-1 Line1, J21-5 Neutral, J20-3 Line2)

[les_garten]

35 minutes ago, Rhubarb Tau said:

I know it's a feature, but so many self-clean cycles end in misery.

Normally I'd suggest checking to Hi-Limit, but the Mini Manual seems to only show a high limit in series with the elements, not interrupting power to the boards.

If you're comfortable taking measurements with the unit live (at your own risk), I'd start by checking for power supplied to the RPSM (relay) board. You should have 120VAC between connector J20 , pin 1 and J21 , pin 5, and you should also have 120VAC between J20-3 and J21-5.

If you'd rather not probe with the unit live, you could unplug the unit and make the check for continuity back to the plug at those same 3 pins (J20-1 Line1, J21-5 Neutral, J20-3 Line2)

Thanx for your help!

I have no problem checking the test points live.

I'll see if I can get that and get back to you.

[les_garten]

46 minutes ago, Rhubarb Tau said:

I know it's a feature, but so many self-clean cycles end in misery.

Normally I'd suggest checking to Hi-Limit, but the Mini Manual seems to only show a high limit in series with the elements, not interrupting power to the boards.

If you're comfortable taking measurements with the unit live (at your own risk), I'd start by checking for power supplied to the RPSM (relay) board. You should have 120VAC between connector J20 , pin 1 and J21 , pin 5, and you should also have 120VAC between J20-3 and J21-5.

If you'd rather not probe with the unit live, you could unplug the unit and make the check for continuity back to the plug at those same 3 pins (J20-1 Line1, J21-5 Neutral, J20-3 Line2)

I don't suppose you have a diagram of that board.  My eyes ain't finding that stuff!

[les_garten]

OK, I did find those connectors.  I do have continuity from the Power plug to those pins on the Relay Board, so I can say that they are getting their 120v, at least to those points on the relay board.

[Chat_in_FL]

9 hours ago, Rhubarb Tau said:

I know it's a feature, but so many self-clean cycles end in misery.

Normally I'd suggest checking to Hi-Limit, but the Mini Manual seems to only show a high limit in series with the elements, not interrupting power to the boards.

If you're comfortable taking measurements with the unit live (at your own risk), I'd start by checking for power supplied to the RPSM (relay) board. You should have 120VAC between connector J20 , pin 1 and J21 , pin 5, and you should also have 120VAC between J20-3 and J21-5.

If you'd rather not probe with the unit live, you could unplug the unit and make the check for continuity back to the plug at those same 3 pins (J20-1 Line1, J21-5 Neutral, J20-3 Line2)

Think we are leaning towards a bad board?

Edited August 21, 2017 by Chat_in_RI

[les_garten]

So the percentages say to go with replacing that relay board?

[Chat_in_FL]

13 hours ago, les_garten said:

I do have continuity from the Power plug to those pins on the Relay Board, so I can say that they are getting their 120v, at least to those points on the relay board.

Did you measure continuity or voltage at the board? Ensure voltage is not dropping out under load.

[les_garten]

I measured continuity between the board connectors and the plug.  The only "Load" being applied now is the oven Lamp.

 

Nothing else seems to energize.

[Rhubarb Tau]

Just to be exact, if you're measuring continuity, your meter's set to resistance. If you're able to safely take live measurements, it'd be more telling to measure for AC voltage between those 3 points. Even if nothing is operating (except the light) , you should still see 120V between L1 ( J20-1 ) and N ( J21-5) , and another 120V between N ( J21-5 ) and L2 ( J20-3 ).

While you're at it, the tech sheet suggests checking for DC voltages at the LIN (aka Master , or Main Logic, or Glass Touch Controls UI (!)) Board. Looks like it's mounted under the cooktop ; if you don't already have direct access, you should be able to make equivalent readings where these wires leave the Relay Board headed for the LIN. Make sure your meter is on DC Volts and look for:

• ~ 7.5 VDC between J17-5 and J17-3 on the Relay Board
• ~ 12 VDC between J17-1 and J17-3 , again on the Relay Board.

 

In my ( fairly limited ) experience, on multi - board units like this with no signs of life, taking good readings is necessary, but usually not sufficient to guarantee that you diagnose and replace the right board; at the end of the dance, it's still a guess. Without any readings at all, I would dead reckon that it's liklier to be the relay board, but that's just considering that the failure happened after a high - temp event ( self - clean ), the Relay Board seems to be mounted on the back wall of the oven cavity where it might be subjected to more heat than the console boards, and it appears to be responsible for distributing power to the other boards, which is consistent with the failure you're describing ( nobody home ).

If you confirm that you do have power coming in to the Relay Board, but no DC coming out, then we know the Relay Board's at fault ( and hopefully nothing else, though cascade failures do happen ). If you don't find power coming in, then you've got to start looking upstream.

 

[les_garten]

51 minutes ago, Rhubarb Tau said:

Just to be exact, if you're measuring continuity, your meter's set to resistance. If you're able to safely take live measurements, it'd be more telling to measure for AC voltage between those 3 points. Even if nothing is operating (except the light) , you should still see 120V between L1 ( J20-1 ) and N ( J21-5) , and another 120V between N ( J21-5 ) and L2 ( J20-3 ).

While you're at it, the tech sheet suggests checking for DC voltages at the LIN (aka Master , or Main Logic, or Glass Touch Controls UI (!)) Board. Looks like it's mounted under the cooktop ; if you don't already have direct access, you should be able to make equivalent readings where these wires leave the Relay Board headed for the LIN. Make sure your meter is on DC Volts and look for:

• ~ 7.5 VDC between J17-5 and J17-3 on the Relay Board
• ~ 12 VDC between J17-1 and J17-3 , again on the Relay Board.

 

In my ( fairly limited ) experience, on multi - board units like this with no signs of life, taking good readings is necessary, but usually not sufficient to guarantee that you diagnose and replace the right board; at the end of the dance, it's still a guess. Without any readings at all, I would dead reckon that it's liklier to be the relay board, but that's just considering that the failure happened after a high - temp event ( self - clean ), the Relay Board seems to be mounted on the back wall of the oven cavity where it might be subjected to more heat than the console boards, and it appears to be responsible for distributing power to the other boards, which is consistent with the failure you're describing ( nobody home ).

If you confirm that you do have power coming in to the Relay Board, but no DC coming out, then we know the Relay Board's at fault ( and hopefully nothing else, though cascade failures do happen ). If you don't find power coming in, then you've got to start looking upstream.

 

I'm getting nothing on those DC pins.  I checked it by pulling off the connector and checking the pins, is that correct?   I didn't see any way to check with the connector connected.  

 

I also checked AC to the Relay board and have 124 volts on each let in to the board.

 

Will the thermal cut off on the top of the oven do this behavior if it went after the self clean?

 

Seems like the relay board is the problem, but I was wondering if the TCO could do this as well?

[Rhubarb Tau]

It's worth checking the TCO. The way the schematic shows it, it doesn't look like the TCO should interrupt power to the system for powerup, but I've definitely misinterpreted tech sheets before. I'd check it.

Yep, checking the DC voltages by removing the connector is fine in this case. If DC isn't there with no load, connecting a load isn't usually going to make it appear. On the other hand ( doesn't apply here ) , if you did  see DC with the connector removed, it'd be worth it to check that it wasn't being loaded by something upstream by leaving the connector plugged in and backprobing between the wires and connector body with some tiny probes.

[les_garten]

Thanx for your help!

 

I ordered the TCO and the relay board.

We had a Lemon range when we first got it.  They replaced everything for a few months and never got it to work right.  So GE replaced it with this one.

Untill this mess it has not been a problem.  Should we sell it and get something else?  It seems like people have issues with the induction ranges.

On the other hand, the TCO and relay board are not unique to induction units and we could have had these issues anyhow.

I'm mainly worried about all the electronic boards in this thing that are Uber expensive to replace.

[Rhubarb Tau]

I just proved my own point ( about missing things on tech sheets ). I hadn't noticed a second limit switch drawn into the door lock mechanism ( probably not physically located in the lock ). That one looks like it does loop back to the Relay Board, might prevent powerup even if both 120V legs are present at J20. If you can see two bi-metal looking limit switches, I'd check them both. If you don't see the second (or first ) , try checking for continuity through the connectors / wiring (not the pins on the Relay Board, if you've disconnected it ) between J16-2 and J16-5 ( looks like two yellow wires on J16, maybe ).

 

[Rhubarb Tau]

Even though it sounds like the Relay Board's already on it's way, you might want to take a look at this contemporaneous thread that I had missed, similar unit, similar symptom.

 

Edited August 21, 2017 by Rhubarb Tau
Forgot to include link

[les_garten]

1 hour ago, Rhubarb Tau said:

Even though it sounds like the Relay Board's already on it's way, you might want to take a look at this contemporaneous thread that I had missed, similar unit, similar symptom.

It won't let me see the link, I would love to see it though.

 

[les_garten]

I do have continuity between those two yellow wires on the door switch, whew!

 

Any way to check the TCO that way that you can tell?

[Rhubarb Tau]

If had continuity between the yellow wires on J16 ( pins 2 - 5 )  , then you ruled out one of the TCOs ( the one I'd guess would be more likely to prevent powerup). Too bad, that would have been a cheaper fix if that's all it was.

The tech sheet is a little ambiguous. The schematic side shows a limit switch between the two yellow wires, and a second limit in series with the Relay 14 ( K14 ). The wiring diagram side only seems to show 1 limit switch between two orange wires, and seems to show wires Y6 and Y7 ( the ones on the schematic side going to a limit switch ) as being crimped together if I'm reading that right.

At this point, if I were on a job, I'd start comparing the diagrams to the wires I could see in front of me, try to make some sense of the diagrams with the aid of the physical beast. You're the only one in a good position to sanity check the diagrams, unless any of the other folks around know the wiring from memory.

If it were me, I'd still be hunting for that 2nd limit switch, just to rule out an easy fix if nothing else. To test them, you can Ohm or continuity check across the terminals just like you do for wiring. If you find a limit switch that doesn't have continuity, you're on to something. Press the red button if it has one, or replace it if not.

[les_garten]

Do you have a way of telling me how to find that other thread, I would like to read it.  The forum says I don't permission to view the link you posted. 

I can't even view the link, much less click on it.

I ordered the TCO and the relay board.

I got them both reasonable on ebay, so picked them both up.

[Rhubarb Tau]

Actually, I didn't notice that the other link is in the "technician's only" forum. You'd have to be a professional member to see the thread.

 

[les_garten]

Was the fix over there the same thing?

[Rhubarb Tau]

Sorry, this post snuck by me.

His setup was a little different than yours; he had a relay board failure that took out a power supply board, ended up replacing both.

Did you  get any closure on this one?

[les_garten]

10 hours ago, Rhubarb Tau said:

Sorry, this post snuck by me.

His setup was a little different than yours; he had a relay board failure that took out a power supply board, ended up replacing both.

Did you  get any closure on this one?

Yeah I did.  The relay board was replaced.  Back to cooking.

Cancelled my service visit.

Then a couple weeks later I get an email from GE Appliances that my warranty is up, would I like a new extended warranty.  But it links to a 3rd party company called Assurant or something that was not reviewed very well.

[Rhubarb Tau]

Glad to hear you got it resolved; nice work!

I haven't worked with them, but if the premiums are reasonable, might be worth considering.

SOP at my shop on these multi-board units is, without a smoking gun, quote for EVERY board in the unit. Makes COD calls non-starters in most cases. Just something to think about.

Edited September 13, 2017 by Rhubarb Tau

[les_garten]

19 minutes ago, Rhubarb Tau said:

 

I haven't worked with them, but if the premiums are reasonable, might be worth considering.

SOP at my shop on these multi-board units is, without a smoking gun, quote for EVERY board in the unit. Makes COD calls non-starters in most cases. Just something to think about.

If the reviews of the service were better, I would probably jump on it just because I've priced all the boards, real eye opener there!    But the reviews suggest I might be wasting my money.