KitchenAid KSC23C8EYY02 - not sure what to do

[UrbyTuesday]

I could write a complete novel about this story but don't want to run people off. So I will try to keep it as brief as possible.

In summary, about every 3 months our 6 yr old fridge side starts icing up behind the drawers and on the back side of the unit (outside the fridge by the wall) in a small circular spot.

We've had authorized KitchenAid repairmen out no fewer than 7 times. Probably spent $1000 on warrantied and non-warrantied repairs.  Machine is still icing up, right on schedule.

They have replaced every part on the machine and some twice (thermistors, control boards, everything but the compressor, which seems fine).    I am convinced that this is a war of attrition.  They will never actually replace a lemon fridge.  They will keep throwing parts at it until the customer just gives in.  Either that or their repair men are just REALLY REALLY inept.

A lot of reviews on this box indicate similar issues. 

It's a $2700 fridge, purchased in 2012 that started misbehaving in 2016. We've been battling with it ever since but my wife is sick of taking everything to the garage fridge every 90 days.  She's clamoring for a new one, NOW.  But there's gotta be a way to fix it unless it one of those sealed system issues. We've stopped calling the repair guy.  Last time he felt so bad for us he showed us how to put the thing on manual defrost mode to where it defrosts every 8hrs or something.  May have helped some but very hard to tell. It reverts to auto every time the power blinks. That could have happened the day after you set it manual.  Then you are 3 more months out and can't determine if it worked. Plus, the key sequence is a nightmare for my wife.

I've earnestly delved into appliance repairs before (computer guy, very handy) but refrigerator repair seems to me a bit of a black art.  At the very least I've had the service manual at my disposal.  Can't find one for this device. Wondering what you guys would do?   Just send this box to the dumpster.  It works great in 90 day spurts.  Also, what the hell do I buy next time?  It's not gonna match the rest of the KitchenAid appliances.  My wife literally wants the exact same (updated) model  which I would sooner remove my left pinky than buy.  But the bigger issue is, how do I avoid something like this in the future? And should I try to take this up the ladder with KitchenAid (complain on their Facebook site etc)?

In your experience, what do you experts think I should do?  abandon ship?  I'd rather not.  For pride.  And for $2700.

Thanks!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[leamy]

is is icing up in the fridge side or the freezer side?

is this the complete model number? some of this series has 2 evaporators

[UrbyTuesday]

icing up on the fridge side.  

https://www.kitchenaid.com/shop/-[KSC23C8EYY]-402285/KSC23C8EYY/ is the exact one we have.  The repair guy told us not to buy one in the future with dual evaporators....which leads me to believe we do have dual evaps.  

[Rhubarb Tau]

KSC23C8EYY02 is a dual-evap unit. I'm a fan of the Whirlpool-built dual-evap units, but they're a little idiosyncratic; I think a lot of old-skool techs don't like them because they're more complicated than single-evap units, and so many of the functions of the system are algorithmically-driven. I'd say that it's worth fixing, but I suspect that's a pretty common opinion on a site of service techs.

If the Ref. evap is frosting up completely, I wouldn't say there's much cause to suspect a sealed system issue. More likely it's a sensor or airflow issue.

I would take a close look at the Ref. evaporator cover and insulation (styrofoam block), make sure everything's in place and sealing properly. Air leaks around the evaporator cover or insulation can cause excess frost buildup. If the insulation is damaged, replace it - W10260458 (about $55 at SearsPartsDirect.com). The insulation also includes a new evaporator fan, which would rule that out as a possible cause.

While you have the evap cover off, check that the Ref. Evap Thermistor's mounted snug on the suction (larger dia.) line of the evaporator. That sensor needs to acccurately read the temperature at the outlet of the evaporator, so in problem cases I've taken to putting a few wraps of foil tape over the sensor and line to act as a blanket, keep them at the same temperature.

If you don't find any obvious culprits, I think I would invest in a temperature logger (I like the Supco SL300T , about $75 , although I think some guys on the site are using this one with good results https://www.amazon.com/SensorPush-Wireless-Thermometer-Hygrometer-Android/dp/B01AEQ9X9I ). Place it somewhere directly in the airflow from the evap and set the logging interval low enough to be able to see cooling and defrost cycles. Review the temp log and look for any thing that stands out - missed defrost cycles, or cooling cycles where the fan may not have been running.

[LearningTech]

 Its not nessesarily that old techs are afraid or cant  fix them. Dual evaps do have more parts, more places to leak 2x the defrost system fan etc.  they are more likely to have problems period.  Unless you need very even temps or precice humidity control. Dont get a dual evap.  That said:

 there is no defrost system for your fridge it defrost by blowing air.

IS the COILS iceing up or is it failing to drain and water backing up and Freezeing. 

Its normal to freeze close to the coils and so the drain needs to be 110% clear. Very picky. The fan needs to run near all the time on these( some are not programed that way( and therfore may be termed a lemon by some.  

A bad board or sensor will cause it to run too long and freeze ( so can a customer setting like 36 deg) or not turn on a fan

but we need to know what is gfreezeing  coil of drain or other a frosted coil is diferent than a frosted drain.

19 hours ago, UrbyTuesday said:

replace a lemon fridge.

  THERE are no lemons. As i tech i dont believe They exist. Many on here will agree with me. Now there are definitly bad designs. And that design, may cause an undesired result, but if the unit is working as designed it cant be a lemon. And if it is not working as designed it CAN be fixed. 

Elitech rc-4 temp logger is good for price $15 and needs a computer to set up and read so not as nice as mobile view ones, but works good for the purpose here

[UrbyTuesday]

7 hours ago, LearningTech said:

THERE are no lemons. As i tech i dont believe They exist.

I 100% agree with this.  That is why I am here.  I'm in IT and although there are bad switches at times, it is EXTREMELY rare for a switch to just have a 'bad port'.  But the number of times I hear IT guys try to blame a connectivity issue on a bad port is NOT rare!

My issue here (among other things) is lack of information.  If i could even get my hands on a service manual, that COULD be a good place to start. I don't even know how to take the thing apart without breaking things in some places.  The fridge evap cover is not a problem...but I do remember checking that drain one time and wasn't even sure if I was looking at the correct tube.  Even a simple diagram of the thing would be helpful.

To order a thermistor, i'd need to know WHICH one to order....which I can obviously do through SPD or whatever but how many of these things/parts are there and where are they all located? I can typically figure it out....but I hate to buy a thermistor when I could just check the old one with a meter.  But what specs am I looking for?

 

 

 

[David C]

The information that you are requesting, is something that we as professionals pay for by being a member at appliantology.org

[UrbyTuesday]

I have no idea how that works.  I actually purchased the same thing for my dryer online somewhere for $10 or something. 

Okay, I just read about the membership required to do that.  It's $197 a year.  But I am not even eligible for that because I am not an certified technician of any sort.   

[David C]

I don't believe that you will get that info such as a Service Manual unless you can find it available publicly online. 

[UrbyTuesday]

I figured as much.  So I suppose we are back at the same place I started - what to do.

I swear I didn't come here to try to weasel a manual out of someone on the sly.  not my gig.  Happy to pay $50 bucks for a manual but a $197 membership and a false attestation as to my eligibility is a bit of a steep price.

How much support are you guys willing to provide through this process?  Could take weeks or months.

Would folks here possibly give me the ohm specs for the thermistor I need to test?

Alternatively, does anyone know a crack fridge repair person in Charlotte, NC who might take one last stab at this?  More than happy to go that route.

I am happy to start with the thermistor and evap cover.  Our styro block WAS cracked at some point by one of the repair guys but I duct-taped the hell out of the crack.  That might not be sufficient for the precision temp monitoring which is apparently necessary however.  I'm also not sure any of the repair guys mounted the thermistor with such care - foil tape, location etc.  

 

[David C]

I would look for a local repair person with outstanding reviews. That will tell you a lot about the company. Check Angie’s list, google reviews, yelp etc. Just a thought.

 

[Rhubarb Tau]

2 hours ago, UrbyTuesday said:

My issue here (among other things) is lack of information.

Check under the upper right Ref. door hinge. You should find a printed Tech Sheet. It's a start, anyway.

[UrbyTuesday]

20 minutes ago, Rhubarb Tau said:

Check under the upper right Ref. door hinge. You should find a printed Tech Sheet. It's a start, anyway.

awesome. I can give that a shot!

[LearningTech]

W10287673- tech sheet part # ; and W10335724  search. The internet they may be available freely there.

 Looks like 4 thermistors they usually are all the same. W10316760  Verify with a part lookup.

they can be tested  at the main board white wires,  this has a value chart for the therisotr at certain temps. Need high quality thermistor probe to test a thermstor, or submerge it in  icewater( standard for 32 degrees.) https://www.manualslib.com/manual/582316/Kitchenaid-Ksra22fk.html?page=13

[UrbyTuesday]

well, here goes. temp logger comes today in the mail.   

i took everything apart and thawed it last night with a hairdryer.  cleaned it all up, made sure the drain wasn't clogged etc.

on one interesting suggestion I read here suggested an 'unofficial' manufacturer recommendation to move the evaporator thermistor from the exit tube to the entry tube.  that sound like some voodoo or reasonable?

another forum here said they tried everything under the sun and then an old crusty local guy finally replaced some kind of sensor that is about 2/3 of the way up the inside of the fridge on the right side under a little white plastic pop-off cover.  It was indeed difficult to recognize but i did find it.  The sensor itself is white plastic.  I could NOT find this part number anywhere or see it in any of the illustrations online.  It also doesn't appear to be a serviceable part.  The wiring goes into the foam cabinet insulation. Would require splicing the new sensor to the old wiring. splicing is easy enough but  but i wouldn't know which part to get.

a couple of observations:

1) the styrofoam insulators on the sides of the fridge evap were heavy as lead.  i was shocked. i realized that they are waterlogged and were frozen.  I thawed them but the water still remains inside.  that CAN'T be helping things. I had no idea styrofoam was porous!  should i replace those?

2) the black, tar-like insulator tape that that goes over the evaporator entry tube is terribly degraded.  there's black tar all over the top of the evaporator and down the back sides of the cabinet.  what is that stuff called and where can i get a replacement? or is it that important?  looks like it is mean to protect that copper nipple thing which i know is some kind of valve or thermostat but not sure which one.

 

 

[UrbyTuesday]

well apparently that little white temp sensor is the RC Thermistor.  Geez.  They told me it'd been changed out.  No way that thing has been changed out. you can't move the wiring even if pulling near the breakpoint. it's encased in cabinet foam.  so that definitely needs to be tested along with the FC thermistor which i bet is the same.  i suppose it is better to check it the control board end, no?  now...i gotta figure out how to find the control board.

[16345Ed]

On 5/15/2018 at 11:56 AM, David C said:

I would look for a local repair person with outstanding reviews. That will tell you a lot about the company. Check Angie’s list, google reviews, yelp etc. Just a thought.

 

This

[Budget Appliance Repair]

The thermistor/sensor that is hanging down in the picture of the black mastic material that has all melted off - is that the way it was when you opened things up?

If so, then that is the problem, that sensor has to be clipped to the outlet of the evaporator, the tube without the black mastic material, (which is just a muffler - quiets the noise of the liquid refrigerant as it changes to gas and expands into the evaporator).   I just use a perma-gum material to replace that black sticky mastic tape material that melts off like that.

[UrbyTuesday]

no no. it wasn't hanging down.  I had just unclipped it to clean everything up.  I cleaned off all the black tar and buttoned up everything last night.  Sealed any possible leak points with foil tape and set the temp sensor to logging.  I will post results as I get them.  I've got it on 8 hr manual defrost mode at present...just for logging purposes to make sure something is happening every 8 hours.

I also tested the RC thermistor at the end of its molex plug near the compressor underneath in the rear.  I got a reading of 2.8K.  but that was at 72 deg.  Supposed to be 5.3K at 50 deg. I may test it again with everything cooled down.

 

 

[UrbyTuesday]

okay so here are my first log results.  this look correct to you guys? temp goes up and down by 10 degrees every hour or so.  It basically heats up gradually for an hour then cools down in 10 minutes...and starts the cycle over again.  I have nothing to compare it to. I have no idea how this corresponds with an 8 hour defrost cycle though.  some help here would be key.

 

[evaappliance]

On 5/15/2018 at 12:55 AM, LearningTech said:

Now there are definitly bad designs. And that design, may cause an undesired result,

We are not afraid of anything other than being married to a design flawed refrigerator that can’t work as designed . As i think learning tech said , if it was once right we can make it right again, but this is not the case with this junk.  So yes rhubarb , you got us old techs number , we are afraid of making 10 return calls ,and having the customer shifting the anger from the design flawed appliance to us just because we were trying to help them by trying to make something out of nothing.    Or is not touching design flawed junk our years of experience telling us what the last page of the story is cause we have read it a hundred times.     Just my opinion.  Sometimes i just get a little ill at these companies getting away with selling junk out of the box that’s all.  Sorry  

[LearningTech]

On 6/8/2018 at 10:51 AM, UrbyTuesday said:

should i replace those?

Answered by:

 

2 hours ago, evaappliance said:

Ignore this quote

On 5/14/2018 at 6:17 PM, Rhubarb Tau said:

. If the insulation is damaged, replace it -

 

[Lighthouse]

On 5/15/2018 at 10:43 AM, UrbyTuesday said:

does anyone know a crack fridge repair person in Charlotte, NC

Not sure how far it is for you but I would recommend giving these guys a shout. http://www.durhamappliancethrift.com

[Budget Appliance Repair]

That temp log looks fine to me, pulling back down to shutoff temp in 10 minutes is really good.

The spike on 6/9/18 4:31:40 maybe a defrost spike or you opened the door at that point.

You will have to leave it running for a couple days without really disturbing it to see actual defrost spikes, (they would be much easier recognized if the logging was in the freezer section).

[UrbyTuesday]

oh!  well, then I will move I to the freezer tonight!  

yes, the humidity spike was right about 5.30AM when I opened the door.  

I swear it'll work 3-4 months like this without issue.  after 90 days or so however, we'll start seeing the "first frost" and my wife will start planning a date to move everything out to the garage.