1980's Kenmore 70 series - water pump randomly turning on

[Brewmaster210]

Hi, I have a 1980's model Kenmore 70 series washer. Its the old style with the belt driven motor. It works absolutely perfect except for one issue. It fills with water, starts agitating, but then randomly it will stop agitating, and the water pump will kick on for anywhere from 1 second to maybe 10 seconds (it doesnt drain it all the way). As soon as the pump stops, it starts agitating again until the next random time that the water pump turns on. Sometimes it will refill the water back up, I'm guessing if it senses that its too low. It does this many times during a cycle (anywhere from 0 to 20 times in one cycle). Sometimes I get lucky and it completes a whole cycle without doing it. Any ideas of what the problem may be?

[hi-Phile]

1980's should be retired, why use old technology that's not very efficient?  Maybe, could be the timer getting stuck or a faulty/corroded connection.

[Budget Appliance Repair]

That's not the water pump that is turning on!!!   It is the water inlet valve, (the water pump is the pump that drains water out of the machine).

I sounds like you have a siphon problem,  need to make sure the drain hose is no more than 1 foot pushed down into the house drain standpipe.   The standpipe top has to be at very minimum the level of the wash tub top.  Also, you can't have the washer drain hose taped to the top of the standpipe - has to be able to suck air down around the drain hose so a siphon can't be started.

The water is siphoning out of the tub going down the drain and the pressure switch activates when the water level gets low enough, agitation stops, water fills again until the pressure switch is satisfied then resumes agitating again until the process repeats.

Edited October 20, 2020 by Budget Appliance Repair

[Brewmaster210]

Maybe I wasnt 100% clear. I have this washer outside at the moment while i troubleshoot it, and hooked to a water hose. I know no water is siphoning out of the drain hose because I have it bungeed to the top of the machine (higher than the water level) and I can see the end of it, and no water is coming out while its agitating. The machine will agitate for a while (anywhere from 10 seconds to 10 minutes), and then it suddenly stops, and the water pump turns on for anywhere from 1 second to usually 10 seconds or so), and while its on, a heavy stream of water is being pumped out of the machine through the drain hose and the water level inside stops dropping. But then it usually stops before it drains it all the way, and starts agitating again. So in other words, it comes on at a random time, it pumps for a random duration, and it does this a random amount of times during the agitation/wash cycle (sometimes 0 times, sometimes 20 times, as mentioned above). So to be clear, the water inlet valve only comes on when the level gets too low (due to the pump coming on randomly). That part probably confused you above because I know its a common issue for water to be leaking / siphoning out from having the end of the drain hose to low. Thats not my problem here.

[spencertech]

It has been a while since i've worked on one of these. A common problem is a wire going to the agitate solenoid on the wigwag breaks from moving back and forth. It may not be broke all the way and make contact and then not.

[Brewmaster210]

I checked all wires on the washer, and everything seems solid. Heres the ones I think you're talking about:

[Budget Appliance Repair]

I think @spencertech has nailed this one - It's been so long since I worked on these old belt drive Whirlpools but what @spencertech described is a somewhat common problem for these.

The wires don't always look broken, they break internally usually near where they come out of the wigwag and around that first hanger clip.

Another thing it could be also - check the stirrup on the right hand slide bar - that's the one that shifts it into agitate and turns the pump to the closed position so it won't drain.   Hard to tell from your picture but it kind of looks like the stirrup has bent, (when pulled up it should have the same clearance to the bottom of the magnet/wigwag assembly at the front and back of the stirrup.  If bent it could be slipping off the slide bar which would turn off agitate and open the drain port on the pump.

You need to watch that right side cam bar, (looking in the access hole from the back),  and see if the solenoid is dropping the stirrup down when it goes into the premature drain or if it just slips off the step in the cam bar.   If you see the stirrup actually drop down then either the solenoid is failing as it heats up and dropping out or you have broken wires, (internal/inside plastic wire sheathing).

[evaappliance]

9 hours ago, Budget Appliance Repair said:

old belt drive Whirlpools

i sure miss the days before electronics  ,   one of the best 

[Brewmaster210]

I checked the cam bar and nothing is bent. I also ran a test cycle and watched the solenoids. The right solenoid is definitely dropping when it happens, which engages the water pump. As a test, while it was running, i stuck a pencil in and wiggled the wires going to the solenoids, and I was not able to reproduce it. I pushed and tugged on them pretty good with the pencil at all areas of the wiring that i could reach (being careful not to get my hand caught up in the moving belt of course ) The wires look like they're in great shape and show no physical damage. I believe you when you said it could be broken internally, but there isnt any sign of stress on them. So before I go and replace the wiring, I thought I would ask again - is there anything else that could cause this? Like a bad timer for example? Like could there be a loose connection in the timer itself?

[Budget Appliance Repair]

The next thing to do would be to get a meter on the agitate cam wires, (preferably at the timer - but at the wigwag if you can get your probes to stay in while it's running and see if you are loosing power to the solenoid when the plunger drops down).

If you get the probes in at the solenoid and see it drop power when the solenoid drops then you need to get the meter on the same wires up at the timer so that you can see if the power stays on directly at the timer when the solenoid drops out.

It could be the timer, but that is somewhat unlikely - the wigwag wires breaking internally is a much more common problem since they are in constant motion when the washer is running.

[spencertech]

Could be the solenoid but more likely a wire maybe you could unhook the wires to the agitate solenoid make up some wires with spade connectors and use a cheater cord to power it when its running and see if it clicks out or not.

[plaza22]

The break is usually internal on those wires, About 3 inches from the connector.  Disconnect the wire from the solenoid and pull on it and see if it breaks.  If it is not that  then it is the solenoid

[evaappliance]

2 hours ago, plaza22 said:

The break is usually internal on those wires, About 3 inches from the connector.  Disconnect the wire from the solenoid and pull on it and see if it breaks.  If it is not that  then it is the solenoid

yes !!!!!   

[Brewmaster210]

So heres the latest update. I did as Budget Appliance Repair said above, and tested voltage at the agitate cam wires. It was 120, until the water pump turned on prematurely, and at that point it dropped to 0 volts. Then back to 120  when it started agitating again. So then I put the meter on the agitate cam wires behind the control panel, and again, i had 120 there until the pump  turned on prematurely, at which point it dropped to 0 again. So I've concluded (I think) that there no break in the wire, but that the drop is happening in the timer itself. I assume this means the timer itself is bad, unless a bad pressure switch can cause these symptoms?

[Vance R]

Post the model number so we can look at wiring diagram. Grab the timer knob and wiggle it up and down side to side to check for loose/ worn timer shaft.

[Brewmaster210]

Washer is Kenmore 110.82371120. The timer is 376011 (replacement part is WP378133). I wiggled the timer knob up down and side to side and it felt solid.

[Vance R]

So much for my idea, thats an oldie the service manual LIT787206 doesn't show up on the net. There is a copy on ebay. If your lucky there should be wiring diagram on back cover for the transmission.  If the timer is solid  that rules out wear. So it could be timer or pressure switch.

[Brewmaster210]

So you think its possible it could be pressure switch? I checked the tube and its clear, and blew in the tube and heard it click. Not to say that means anything I guess. Could a bad pressure switch really cause these symptoms? I found a timer on eBay but before I buy it I want to rule out the pressure switch.

[Vance R]

Not sure because don't remember how this one is wired. Most older ones if it "got low enough on water" it would flip back to fill. Could be small pin hole in tubing, not likely but always possible. Should be 3 pin on pressure switch -120 vac into switch,  1 pin out to water valves through hot/cold switches and 1 pin out to timer for agitate. Maybe able to monitor voltages to see if switch is power the valves when your issue occurs.

[Budget Appliance Repair]

It's not the pressure switch, the pressure switch is doing it's job.  

If I understand you correctly from your description:

When it goes into premature pump out because the agitate solenoid looses power for whatever reason, when it get down to where the pressure switch trips because too much water is drained out it should then stop running/agitating and the water should start filling until it gets to the full level then starts agitating again, (or just starts draining again when it starts back up if whatever is causing the power loss to agitate solenoid is still happening).

You might want to take the timer out and pull the metal or cardboard shield off so you can examine the contact points, (focus on the points that you have determined to be for the agitate solenoid and see if they look burnt).  If it happens to be one of the points on top you can use a plastic stirrer or a stick like a chop stick and when it starts to pump out when it shouldn't push the contact leaf from the top with the stick and see if it stops draining and starts agitating again.

 

Edited October 26, 2020 by Budget Appliance Repair

[eng3]

Did you ever solve this issue?  It sounds similar to mine.

 

Except the agitator keeps going and the water coming out is a slow but steady stream.  It is also well above the tub so I dont think it's siphoning.

[evaappliance]

Yours will be a bad pump

[Budget Appliance Repair]

19 hours ago, evaappliance said:

Yours will be a bad pump

Or something like a lint ball or something else stuck in the flapper that shuts off flow to the drain outlet.

@eng3

Remove the pump and check the inlet and outlet ports for any foreign objects.

Edited June 1, 2021 by Budget Appliance Repair

[spencertech]

could be siphoning