Kenmore Washer 110.28922790 intermittently not starting or stopping mid cycle

[D66215]

It started as intermittent, where a the washer would stop mid cycle. I was able to get it to finish by rotating the timer to a different rinse or spin cycle (or sometimes even the same one) and it eventually restarted. Now it won't start most of the time. I've been testing it by rotating the timer to the spin at the end of the normal wash cycle and pulling out the knob - sometimes it spins other times the timer just progresses to off at it's usual pace with no spin activating.

I believe it's unrelated, but was also having trouble with clothes being wet at the end of the cycle most days, so when this intermittent problem got worse I went ahead and replaced the clutch thinking maybe that was contributing to the problem. Now when it DOES spin, it starts up much quicker and no clanking noise, so that's good, but it doesn't help the primary issue.

Is this likely a timer issue? I know the motor works since it spins sometimes. It fills fine, though I'm afraid to fill it now for testing since I don't know if it will ever drain.

Anything else I can do to troubleshoot? 
Thanks

[Budget Appliance Repair]

Sounds like timer issue to me - burnt contact points in timer only intermittently making contact.

[D66215]

Is this something I would be able to see on the ends of plugs going into the timer or is it internal to the timer assembly?

Thank you.

[Budget Appliance Repair]

Internal contact points inside the timer - would need to do an electrical check with a meter .

This is an older machine with the metal body timer with a thin sheet steel covering the points that can be removed pretty easily to visually inspect the points, (Don't pry them up hard/be gentle if lifting to inspect point contract surfaces).

[D66215]

I took apart the timer and tested for continuity on all the pin pairs. I cleaned the contact points with 400 grit on every combination as well as the pins that go to the plugs. 25 years of moisture had deposited somewhat of a film on everything so cleaning them up definitely resulted in better conductivity.  Having taken apart very carefully with photos I carefully put back together and it all functioned mechanically.  I reinstalled to washer and held my breath while setting to spin and pulled the knob.  Nothing but the soft sound of the timer motor. What a disappointment after all that.

Now that I know how the timer works, I really can't think of what it might be. I can hear timer click through the various commands, but it's like the signals aren't making it to the motor. As mentioned before, it started out as not working occasionally, then quickly became most of the time, now I can't get it to do anything no matter what position I put the timer in.  I'm wondering if there's a single control in the timer that has to be always closed for anything to work and maybe I missed it in my cleaning.

I tested the motor switch contacts according to a diagram I found online that listed what the Ohms should be for various pairs/different windings. Those all appeared to be in spec, although a couple of the pairs listed on the chart were no on my switch.  I know the motor operates since it did spin occasionally. 

Any thoughts of what to test next? 

Thanks.

[Vance R]

The drawing for these are kinda fuzzy due to there age. You'll need to check for voltages going the speed switch from the timer to determine which timer contact is not conducting. Tag a good neutral and check output on the plugs. It is a very tedious process. This picture may help:

 

[D66215]

Sounds like you concur it's likely timer-related.

Should the timer be sending 120V on only a single pin/plug on each particular cycle/operation? I'll assume one of the pins is a neutral, just have to figure out which one. 

Could it be something other than the timer? I've seen others create motor test harnesses that bypass the timer, but I'm not sure it's worth the effort since I have seen it spin recently (just can't get it to do it from the timer now).

 

[dwschnelli]

When I have a suspect timer, still in the machine, I will stress the timer stem by pushing the (pulled out) knob up, down, left and right while energized in any cycle, preferably Spin. This slight distortion will sometimes be enough to close the circuit and allow the motor to run.  That tells me it is a timer problem, replace it if available.

[D66215]

1 hour ago, dwschnelli said:

When I have a suspect timer, still in the machine, I will stress the timer stem by pushing the (pulled out) knob up, down, left and right while energized in any cycle, preferably Spin. This slight distortion will sometimes be enough to close the circuit and allow the motor to run.  That tells me it is a timer problem, replace it if available.

I'll try that next. I can see how that might work, and whether it works when it's up or down would indicate at least which bank (top or bottom) that the suspect contact is in. 
Thanks.

[D66215]

Pushing the timer stem up/down/side did not cause it to run.

I got a new timer delivered today. Installed it and set the knob on spin and and anxiously pulled the knob. Nothing. Timer ticks away from SPIN to OFF with no spin.

So now that I've taken the timer out of the loop of things that could be wrong, I don't know what to try next.   

I believe the motor & capacitor is good since it has spun recently (though not since I started mucking with the timer). I tested the capacitor separately and it tested good. I tested the motor switch contacts according to a diagram I found online that listed what the Ohms should be for various pairs/different windings. Those all appeared to be in spec.

Any thoughts on next thing to check?

Thank you.

[Vance R]

1 minute ago, D66215 said:

Any thoughts on next thing to check?

Power to the motor.

[D66215]

1 minute ago, Vance R said:

Power to the motor.

What's the best way to test power to the motor?

I've been reluctant to test power on any of the pins on the motor since I haven't found a good diagram of which pins on the switch/wiring harness do what. I'm assuming there are 2 that should measure 120v when the timer is set to spin.

Thanks.

[Vance R]

Refer to my picture above the W (white) wire is neutral, power is alittle tougher, for high speed run the B (blue) wire, for low speed run the O (orange) wire. 

[D66215]

Here's the wiring diagram on the sticker inside my panel.  Where can I confirm that the blue and orange will will spin it? Is blue = BU on this diagram?

Also, should I be disconnecting the harness from the motor (and the capacitor) and measuring across the white-blue and white-orange on the wiring harness while the timer is on spin?

 

Thanks.

[Vance R]

So the diagram are slightly different, your is 3 speed motor not a 2 speed as in my picture.  Neutral remains the same W (white) wire, high speed is still the BU (blue) wire, slow speed the the W-V( white with a violet stripe), extra slow is the W-Or( white with orange stipe). Leave everything connected, setup the washer to run with the cabinet off and bypass the lid switch. Spin is the easiest to test as the motor will run without water in the tub. Set the speed selector to high speed wash and spin.  Take the measurements the motor connector. 

If you want to check at the timer trace the BU wire back to switch 5 and pickup the neutral at the timer motor W-Bk( white with a black stripe) wire.

 

If possible would you look over the sticker on the washer for a document number and post.

[Budget Appliance Repair]

By the way, Have you bothered to check the lid switch yet?  It will fill with the lid up but the motor will not run for spin - this one may agitate with the lid open but without a timer chart I can't say for sure.

the other thing to check is the motor thermal cutoff from the White to White/Black at the motor plug - if that thermal cutout or the wiring to it has overheated and open or burned up the connectors to the thermal cutout it won't spin or agitate but would still be able to fill.

Have you checked to see if it will agitate - you don't have to fill it up with water, turn the water to washer off,  remove the hose from the pressure switch, turn the washer to a fill/wash setting and pull timer knob out - you should hear the water valves humming, (no water will fill because water is off).  Then either take another tube and attach to pressure switch and gently blow into until the pressure switch clicks and see if it starts to agitate or not.

[D66215]

13 hours ago, Vance R said:

would you look over the sticker on the washer for a document number and post.

 

1 hour ago, Budget Appliance Repair said:

without a timer chart I can't say for sure

The full sticker picture was too big to upload here so I put it on imgbb here: https://ibb.co/59wgcNX

 

[D66215]

1 hour ago, Budget Appliance Repair said:

By the way, Have you bothered to check the lid switch yet?  It will fill with the lid up but the motor will not run for spin - this one may agitate with the lid open but without a timer chart I can't say for sure.

Yes I checked the lid switch. I wish it was that. Just to be sure I also tried with it jumpered. Also I hear the timer running when the lid is down (on spin), and hear it stop when I raise the lid so (I believe) that further proves the lid switch is operational. 

1 hour ago, Budget Appliance Repair said:

the other thing to check is the motor thermal cutoff from the White to White/Black at the motor plug - if that thermal cutout or the wiring to it has overheated and open or burned up the connectors to the thermal cutout it won't spin or agitate but would still be able to fill.

I did not know these had a cutoff. What does it look like? To test, would I checkt continuity between the W & W-BL at the motor plug (wiring harness part)? Would this failing make sense with the fact that it progressively got worse over a period of time? I would think the cutoff would be either tripped or not tripped.

1 hour ago, Budget Appliance Repair said:

Have you checked to see if it will agitate - you don't have to fill it up with water, turn the water to washer off,  remove the hose from the pressure switch, turn the washer to a fill/wash setting and pull timer knob out - you should hear the water valves humming, (no water will fill because water is off).  Then either take another tube and attach to pressure switch and gently blow into until the pressure switch clicks and see if it starts to agitate or not.

I have not yet tested whether it will agitate by faking out the pressure switch. It did agitate last week before I started all the serious troubleshooting. It would fill, agitate, then sometimes drain and spin. It had to be coaxed several times by rotating the know 360 degrees to spin again, then eventually it would work. That last time I couldn't get it to work and had to manually pull the water out and I haven't tried a full cycle since. 

Thanks for the replies. I really need to get this working.

[D66215]

19 minutes ago, D66215 said:

The full sticker picture was too big to upload here so I put it on imgbb here: https://ibb.co/59wgcNX

Well that didn't seem to work but I was able to shrink the file size down here.

[D66215]

17 hours ago, Vance R said:

If you want to check at the timer trace the BU wire back to switch 5 and pickup the neutral at the timer motor W-Bk( white with a black stripe) wire.

Wanted to try this but unfortunately it looks like the new timer I put in has different connectors to the timer motor so no access to W-Bk. Know of anywhere else I can get a neutral? I don't see any other W-Bk that I can access with a probe.

[Vance R]

For neutral the power cord should be on the back panel. Usually the cord plugs into the harness and you can back probe the connector.

Thanks for the large picture of the wire diagram.

[D66215]

59 minutes ago, Vance R said:

For neutral the power cord should be on the back panel. Usually the cord plugs into the harness and you can back probe the connector.

Thanks for the large picture of the wire diagram.

I see the harness you're talking about but I'm not sure which side is neutral. On the old timer I see that both of the wires going into the timer motor are W-BL. Does that mean I can tag either one? On the new timer they're both light blue. I see now where I can probably get a probe in.

Old timer below.

 

[Vance R]

1 hour ago, D66215 said:

Does that mean I can tag either one?

Nope

 

1 hour ago, D66215 said:

I see the harness you're talking about but I'm not sure which side is neutral

The wire that plugs into the harness with the white wire

[D66215]

On 12/21/2022 at 8:13 PM, Vance R said:

If you want to check at the timer trace the BU wire back to switch 5 and pickup the neutral at the timer motor W-Bk( white with a black stripe) wire.

I checked this. With the speed selector set to high speed wash and spin, timer set on spin, knob pulled out, I get no voltage on the blue wire. On the BU-W wire there is 120V.

Also, I'm assuming "switch 5" is the wash speed selector with the 5 choices (hand washables, extra delicate, regular, heavy duty, hang dry). Back of switch below.

[D66215]

Forgot to add that when I first did this test - when I pulled out the timer knob to run, the washer started spinning. Scared the crap out of me! I let it run and it spun for 30-40 seconds then stopped, and I could hear the timer continue ticking its way to off for another few minutes.

I then pushed the knob in and rotated to spin again, pulled it out and it did not spin. That's when I took the measurements above.