Kenmore Washer 110.28922790 intermittently not starting or stopping mid cycle

[Vance R]

The BU-W wire is in the input side of the speed switch marked by a red X.  Not sure of the path to get power to the purple X to start the motor. Used the document number from your picture to get the whole wire diagram. Will look over the timing chart to see which switches/ contacts are closed in the spin part of cycle for proper voltage path and report back.

[Vance R]

Timer fun, pix

Conditions

circled green area is a connecting point

Speed switch on Heavy Duty swicthes 1,3,7 closed

Timer Ultra clean step 14 for spin

Cam  Switch      wires

4             2             bk to gy

6            14             y to w-bk

8            14             r to bu

12            6             t to r

1              12            t to or          for water not in pix

3             17            p to y-r       for water not in pix

5             31            br to br-y

7             1a            bk to bk-o

11            20           bu to r-bu 

timer knob pulled to on

lid switch closed

From previous measurements

timer motor running, no voltage at bu wire on speed switch.  

Possible causes of no run condition loose connection of or (orange wire) to motor terminal, intermittent connection of centrifugal switch in motor, possible broken wire.

[D66215]

Thank you.

loose connection of OR: I will check the motor harness to see if the the connection is loose. However since I've removed the harness several times over the last week, I would think that I would have noticed and/or it would have gone back on tight.

intermittent centrifugal switch: how do I test this? Where is this on the diagram?

possible broken wire: can I find this by checking continuity on BU (and possibly others) down to the motor?

How is the voltage across the speed switch represented on the diagram? I don't know how to read your table. I wanted to verify that the speed switch was doing what it was supposed to do. For instance, I measured voltage on BU-W at the switch, since SW7 is supposed to be closed, should I have also found voltage on OR and R-BU, and W-V since S2 is closed?

Thanks again for your help.

[Vance R]

1 hour ago, D66215 said:

Where is this on the diagram?

On the diagram it is label mss motor start switch and has the curved arrow. There is secondary one labeled mss for the start winding also has a curved arrow.

 

1 hour ago, D66215 said:

how do I test this?

Tag a known neutral, in this case the motor neutral is the wire labelled W (white) wire. Measure voltage at the OR (orange) wire then the BU (blue) wire with the washer turn on.

 

1 hour ago, D66215 said:

How is the voltage across the speed switch represented on the diagram?

Measuring voltage on this style switch is difficult. A chart for the speed switch is on your chart bottom middle. The chart shows when switches should be open and closed for different speeds. Easiest way to check the switchs is to ohm the contacts for open and closed. To get good readings a wire on one side of the switch has to be removed to prevent false readings. 

[D66215]

35 minutes ago, Vance R said:

Measuring voltage on this style switch is difficult. A chart for the speed switch is on your chart bottom middle. The chart shows when switches should be open and closed for different speeds. Easiest way to check the switchs is to ohm the contacts for open and closed. To get good readings a wire on one side of the switch has to be removed to prevent false readings. 

Trying to see if I understand that switch. Looking at that chart you pointed me to, if the switch is on heavy duty, and the timer is on spin, S1 should be the only one closed. If the timer is on agitate, then S3 & S7 are closed. Am I reading that right?

And for voltage testing on spin, according to the wiring diagram: I should see input voltage at the switch on BU-W, Y-BU & R-BU (all along the left side of the switch) and output voltage on BU only.  Am I reading that right?

Prior readings when on heavy duty and spin were no voltage on BU, so would that indicate that S1 wasn't closed as it should be?

[Vance R]

Here is the switch chart, heavy duty has s1,s3, s7 closed. Once this setting is selected it stay in place unless changed manually by selecting a different setting. The line on the bottom is to show which part of the was cycle the switches come in to use. 

[D66215]

Ok, so using that info I measured the switch for continuity between input and output terminals.  I expected this:

However I got this:

From this does it seem like S2 and S5 (or S6) are closed when they shouldn't be for that cycle?

I also tested continuity from the BK at the power cord to the switch.
I expected this:

But got this:

I believe the the actual results match up with what I was getting for voltage readings (BU-W and OR only). 

Does this mean that power is not coming through the R-BU or Y-BU as expected to switched to the BU to power the hi speed winding? If so I would think that would be a problem with the timer, but I'm using a new timer, so that can't be it.

 

 

 

[Vance R]

The speed switch only comes into use after the motor starts and get up to speed.  Did you remove any wires for your tests?

Need to find out if voltage is getting to the motor on the O (orange) wire.

Edited December 25, 2022 by Vance R
added last sentence

[D66215]

When I went to measure voltage on the orange wire at the motor harness, I saw there was some carbon built up on both the orange and white terminals on the motor switch. The white was the worse of the two. I cleaned off the terminals and plugged it back in and retested on spin, and it spun!!  (thank you thank you!)

I ran a few small loads through all cycles and everything worked (few weird mechanical sounds but I'll do another post for that). However, on the first large load, when it got to spin, it started making a sound like someone throwing the switch on an electric chair over and over. If I stopped it and let it sit for a bit and retried, it seems to start up the spin OK.

I put a 10 sec video with the sound here.  Any idea what that is? Capacitor? (Capacitor tested good earlier in this troubleshooting).

Thanks so much for your help so far.

[Vance R]

7 hours ago, D66215 said:

Any idea what that is?

Possible the terminal connectors in the plug are loose and causing issues.  If the terminals are burnt/ corroded the was the only source i could find on a quick web search. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Whirlpool-Washer-Disconnect-Block-Female-Terminal-WP352088-NEW-Lot-of-10-/313055382394?_trksid=p2349526.m4383.l4275.c1#viTabs_0

Edited December 27, 2022 by Vance R
add terminal connector info

[D66215]

22 hours ago, Vance R said:

Possible the terminal connectors in the plug are loose and causing issues. 

Checked these. They're all in there tight. I cleaned up any carbon that was on the plug side when I cleaned the terminals on the motor switch.

It seems like it only happens on larger loads. I haven't got it to happen on a small load yet.

New problem when I was running some more loads through today. It filled but would not agitate. Just sitting there with a full tub and the timer motor is not running (no timer sounds).  I jumpered the lid switch and took measurements to make sure voltage was getting in. It was. 120V at the power input, 120V at the BU-W, 120V at the OR. I pulled out the 2 leads going to the timer (pic) and measured between the terminals (I think this is the T going in and the W-BL going out) and no voltage. 

Never a dull day with this one. Any thoughts on what I might check next to solve the new no power problem?

Thanks.

 

[Vance R]

Yes the fun continues, added color traces to and from the timer motor.  Notice the timer doesn't go straight to neutral. That neutral goes through the overload in the main motor ( circled in yellow). Leave the wires hooked to the timer motor in place on the timer.  Usually you can back probe the connectors. Tag a good neutral like the incoming power cord then check the T wire, then the W-bk wire for voltage.

 

[D66215]

Before I saw your reply I went ahead and swapped out the timer with a new one that I had obtained for the previous issue. No change, still no movement or sound on the timer and obviously no agitating. So safe to assume it's not a timer issue I guess.

I checked the T wire and it does have voltage. I can't reach the W-BK with the probe with the timer in place, so I'll have to either take it off to change the angle or fashion some stiff wire as a probe extender. I'll work on that but wanted to give you the info on the T wire.
If W-BK doesn't have voltage, that would indicate a timer problem right? And since I just swapped it out with the new one it's pretty likely that it's going to show voltage I would think.

If it shows voltage then the next place to look is that overload in the motor? W-BK to W? While the harness is still connected to the motor switch?

Thanks.

[Vance R]

4 minutes ago, D66215 said:

If W-BK doesn't have voltage, that would indicate a timer problem right?

Open timer motor is most probable for that scenario if you are tagged to neutral at power cord. 

 

6 minutes ago, D66215 said:

If it shows voltage then the next place to look is that overload in the motor? W-BK to W? While the harness is still connected to the motor switch?

Yes, yes and yes. 

[D66215]

As expected, W-BK did have voltage to the neutral and power cord.

When I went to test the W-BK to W at the motor something strange happened. I as I pushed the terminal at the motor switch, it started agitating. Then it stopped. If I pushed it in with my foot it seemed to stay running. However I did see it arc once when I pushed it in. Seemed to arc on the orange connection (inside the harness). That would indicate bad connection? 

 

[D66215]

I cleaned the terminals again with a little bit of 400 grit (W and OR). Both the male and female. It agitated for a few minutes, then stopped agitating while the timer motor remained running. I put the cabinet back on to run it because I didn't want the agitating to wobble the whole back and panel around and break something else. But when the cabinet on I can't mess with the motor harness to see if that gets it going. 

I don't know if the female connectors just slide out of the harness or not and don't want to break them. But I'm thinking that is the connection that needs to be improved.

Any recommendations for best next step?

Thanks.

 

[D66215]

4 minutes ago, D66215 said:

I'm thinking that is the connection that needs to be improved.

Maybe the connectors are stretched out from the carbon buildup that I removed? Maybe a little tinfoil shim?

[Vance R]

Here is the link again for new connectors:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Whirlpool-Washer-Disconnect-Block-Female-Terminal-WP352088-NEW-Lot-of-10-/313055382394?_trksid=p2349526.m4383.l4275.c1#viTabs_0

 

If your careful just remove the connectors from the housing and re-tension them. Worth a try once, after that it would just be replace the connector.

[D66215]

So if I just pull the connector it should slide out of the housing? Didn't want to pull too hard if it wasn't going to come out.

 

 

[Vance R]

9 minutes ago, D66215 said:

So if I just pull the connector it should slide out of the housing?

Not quite that easy. The terminal pushes in from the backside of the connector and there is a tab to lock it into place. To remove the terminal you have to push the tab down with a small tool form the front side of the connector. Usually there is a small channel to insert a tool. In a pinch you can use a jeweler's screwdriver to do this task. Here is a picture of the big brother to your terminal, same principle, tab is circled in red:

 

[D66215]

Update on this one. I ordered the connectors you told me about. In the meantime I pinched down the connectors (W & OR) from the front side to make them tighter. Sanded everything again. Was able to finish off the whole cycle for the load that had been sitting in the tub.  Not sure how long that will last or if I want to push it. The connectors were pretty soft from the repeated connection issues.  Is this something you've seen often on really old machines? (pic below from before cleaning or pinching)

I noticed that the lid switch seems to use the same connectors which are in great shape. Wondering about canibalizing  the female connectors from that to use until parts arrive. I haven't tried to remove them by pushing down the tab you mentioned. Think it's worth the effort?

Thanks.

[Vance R]

See it once in awhile on older machines where a connection has been loose causing a burnt terminal and housing.  Any place in your area to get a connector off an salvage machine?

[D66215]

I've been watching FB marketplace and craigslist. I never seem to be quick enough before they disappear. There are few used appliance sales and repair places nearby, but I expected they would need all their parts for their business so haven't gone there to ask.

If the new connectors I ordered don't work out, I was thinking about rigging up a new "harness" by just cutting off the block and replacing with insulated female quick connects.

 

[D66215]

The machine has been running for 10+ loads over a few days now.  I guess crimping that female connector on the motor harness (W) was just enough to make it tight. The new female connects arrive today so I'll try to replace the worn ones but it seems like a safe bet that was the cause of my problem.  Thanks for everyone's help, especially @Vance R. 

Now I'm moving on to the original problem of the rotational "tick tick tick" sound that I was trying to troubleshoot before I was sidetracked with this electrical problem. I started a new thread for the tick tick tick sound here.