Kenmore Washer 110.28922790 - Can anyone identify this sound?

[D66215]

This sound started a few months ago. It's rotational and accelerates with the tub speed. Tick tick tick.  I thought it must be the clutch so I replaced the clutch friction pad assembly and the plastic "fin" on the brake that came in the kit.
(Then I went on a long detour because a different problem cropped up - solved in the forum here.)
Now that the electrical problem is fixed, I'm back to this sound. Replacing the clutch pads didn't help. Does anyone know what this sound is? 

I initially replaced the whole clutch: pan, pad assy, spring, brake "fin". But when I put it back together it made a terrible noise so I repeated the process to make sure I didn't do anything wrong. I swapped the old pan and spring back in and the terrible noise went away, but the tick tick tick has remained.

Video of the tick tick tick sound. It gets faster as the tub spins up and then goes away at top speed.  It's been happening consistently for months and continues even after the partial clutch replacement.

2 other bits of info I should add:
 - Just in the last day the tub seems to free-spin at the end of the spin.
 - This was the first time that the transmission assy has been removed from this machine. All the videos I watched about replacing the clutch showed that there was a thrust washer above the clutch on the shaft. Mine did not have this thrust washer.

Thanks!

 

[Budget Appliance Repair]

18 hours ago, D66215 said:

All the videos I watched about replacing the clutch showed that there was a thrust washer above the clutch on the shaft. Mine did not have this thrust washer.

They all have a thrust washer and it needs to be there - it's what the flat bushing in the end of the basket drive rides on to keep the basket drive at the correct height.

If the thrust washer is missing then the basket drive is setting directly on top and and rotating against the spring keeper that snaps into the slot on the agitator shaft.

Sometimes when you remove the transmission the thrust washer will stay stuck to the bottom of the basket drive/brake assembly, then it can fall off later and you might have lost it around the washer somewhere.  It could have rolled off into a corner.

If you replaced the complete clutch and also the brake drive cam then you had to have removed the thrust washer if it was there - I can assure it was there before you started taking things apart.

[D66215]

On 1/7/2023 at 7:56 AM, Budget Appliance Repair said:

If you replaced the complete clutch and also the brake drive cam then you had to have removed the thrust washer if it was there - I can assure it was there before you started taking things apart.

Thanks. I agree with you that all indications are that there should have been one there. I was very careful taking apart so I would see how it went back together. I even took photos right after taking the transmission out (here). I've looked all over the area just in case and not there. Sounds like you're 100% sure that it wouldn't have left the factory without one and have been operating for the the last 24 years like that. In that case I guess I need to find one to replace.  Dumb question - is it possible that the thrust washer was beat up over 24 years and just disintegrated?  

However, the sound that I described in my initial post was occurring before I replaced the clutch, so presumably unrelated to the missing thrust washer. Any thoughts on the cause of that one?

Thanks.

[Vance R]

1 hour ago, D66215 said:

Dumb question - is it possible that the thrust washer was beat up over 24 years and just disintegrated?  

Possible yes but not very likely. It is more common for the bushing of the basketdrive to wear. In extreme cases the clip for the arm will fall off because one side of the groove is gone. If you remove the basketdrive look at the brake drum bolt heads for wear. 

[D66215]

When you say "remove the basket drive", are you referring to removing the transmission and the shaft from the bottom? Same thing?

[D66215]

17 minutes ago, Vance R said:

look at the brake drum bolt heads for wear. 

Did you notice anything in my photos that looked like abnormal wear? The noise has been going on for months. Well before I disassembled to replace clutch.

[Budget Appliance Repair]

Don't notice anything from your pictures - the thrust washer is definitely missing and wasn't missing before you took it apart, (if it was missing before - the keeper clip would be worn on top and the bushing in the bottom of the basket drive wouldn't still have the circular round marking on it).

@Vance R means you would have to remove the spin basket, (before removing transmission), then remove transmission and pull the basket drive/brake assembly to inspect the bolt heads that attach the brake drum to the basket support assembly to make sure none of backed out and are rubbing on the brake shoes or brake assembly, (above the brake shoes that you can't see with it only disassembled as far as you have it).

[D66215]

1 hour ago, Budget Appliance Repair said:

Don't notice anything from your pictures - the thrust washer is definitely missing and wasn't missing before you took it apart, (if it was missing before - the keeper clip would be worn on top and the bushing in the bottom of the basket drive wouldn't still have the circular round marking on it).

@Vance R means you would have to remove the spin basket, (before removing transmission), then remove transmission and pull the basket drive/brake assembly to inspect the bolt heads that attach the brake drum to the basket support assembly to make sure none of backed out and are rubbing on the brake shoes or brake assembly, (above the brake shoes that you can't see with it only disassembled as far as you have it).

Ok I think I understand. The bolt heads that I want to inspect for wear are visible from the top, after I remove the tub and not from below, when I remove the transmission. And the thought is that might be causing the "tick tick tick" sound in the video.

I've ordered a thrust washer. It's still the strangest thing ever, since it couldn't have gone anywhere and surely would have made a noise if it dropped off at my feet when I removed the transmission & clutch.  Maybe aliens.

Since I've been running it for a week since the clutch replacement, would there be any telltale noises it would be making without the thrust washer or is it just silently destroying the innards on every load?  I guess what I'm asking is should I stop using it until I get the thrust washer reinstalled?

Thank you!

[Vance R]

4 hours ago, D66215 said:

I want to inspect for wear are visible from the top, after I remove the tub and not from below, when I remove the transmission.

The bolts i'm talking about are what hold the brake drum to the support. The basket drive hides the when in place. To remove the basket drive the agitator and basket have to be removed. 

[Budget Appliance Repair]

And, I wouldn't advise that you try to remove the spin basket with the transmission out.

It would probably be best to get the thrust washer and reinstall the transmission and do a test.  If sound is still there and you want to go further, remove the agitator and spin basket before you remove the transmission again.  That keeps the basket drive supported correctly and gives some weight to the machine when you try to remove the spin basket.

[D66215]

Ok now I get it. I wasn't understanding what the basket drive was. I see the bolts in this picture from repair vid.

I'll report back when I get the thrust washer.

Thanks.

 

[D66215]

So the noise has continued. I recently came across a video where a guy described the click click click and attributed it to the neutral drain being worn out (teeth shaved off the plastic wheel in the transmission or other worn out parts). This got me researching neutral drain and it made my think I may have the same problem. It looks like the cycle is supposed to go:
Fill
Agitate
Drain completely
Spin
Fill
Agitate
Drain completely
Spin
Mine does not do the "drain completely" step, it starts draining but then also starts spinning. I always thought this was by design to push out more water through centrifugal force. I read that spinning while full of water is bad and indicates a malfunctioning gearcase. Is that true? The "click click click" happens after the tub starts spinning while mostly full of water and continues until it is almost at full speed. Almost like it stops after the weight of the full tub is lightened.

I wanted to test all this. I have a donor machine of a very similar model (11028802890) that runs fine, so I pulled the gearbox from that one, after verifying on searspartsdirect that both models used the same gearbox, and put it on my machine. Here's what happens now:
 - it does drain completely after the wash agitate, but does not spin before being refilled for rinse.
 - the click click click is still there when the tub starts spinning while mostly full of water. 

I don't understand why it's acting differently in 2 different machines. Is the "drain completely before spinning" thing a function of the model? How can I tell what the cycle is supposed to do?  There's a listing on the sticker under the control panel, but I'm not sure how to read it.

I'm going to put the gearbox from my machine into the 11028802890 to see how it behaves.

Thanks for any input.

[D66215]

For anyone that comes across this in the future - a new timer surprisingly fixed the noise.  I suspect because it fixed the neutral drain issue so the tub is lighter when it spins and doesn't hit anything.