Whirlpool washer LSQ8512KQ0, new transmission, new agitator, new dogs, but top agitator won't spin - just oscillates back and forth

[VAlto]

 

 

Thanks for reading this post!  I've been working on this washing machine for weeks now, because it seems like such a solid work horse even though it's 23 years old, plus it's upstairs in a small laundry room so it has a big home court advantage.  I thought I had it fixed with a new transmission, but no.  Here is the background and current problem.  I noticed that the top agitator was just going back and forth, not all the way around which I thought it should do.  Found 2 of the top tabs on the lower agitator broken off, so replaced the lower agitator and the whole dog/cam assembly both with OEM.  Then I noticed that the washer was starting to spin with a full load of water.  Researched that and learned it needed the neutral drain kit.  Bought and installed it, but in my ignorance lost a ball bearing out of the transmission in the process and when I ran it 4 parts inside the transmission broke.  Ok, bought a new transmission (only $150 brand new, not rebuilt)  Put it all back together expecting perfection.  No, the agitator is doing the exact same thing!  Rotates strongly back and forth but the top agitator doesn't advance.  Attached a video I just took.  I ran it twice with the smallest amount of just water.  The first time the new neutral drain in the new transmission worked, the second time it started spinning with the full load of water again!  I think whatever is wrong has now broken the new neutral drain in the brand new tranny!  So I need help from people who know more than me.  What the heck is wrong with this thing?  In case there's a question: I cannot spin the tub by hand when it's off, so brake seems to be there.  And I cannot stop the exposed shaft by hand when it's agitating.  The tub spins strong and fast in the spin cycle.  What to do?   

 

Thank you!

[Vance R]

Rerun the test and put a little down pressure on the top of the agitator with your hand.  Or with the machine stopped you can rotate the agitator top  clockwise it should move free, then rotate the top counter - clockwise and the feed dogs should grab.  Been a while since i've done this test may have the direction reversed.

[igloo]

I would make sure the agitator bolt is tightened enough. 

 

The neutral drain on the new transmission probably works fine. The tub will spin with water if you open the lid to "check on it". To verify it, I suggest jumping out the lid switch or sticking a screwdriver on the lid switch tab, but long before the washer goes into spin and holding it closed the whole time. Do it while it's agitating and don't interrupt the lid switch and let the washer stop agitating, sit for a minute and watch it go into neutral drain. If you let go of the lid switch and then press it again while draining, it will start spinning with water.

Edited June 4, 2023 by igloo

[VAlto]

Yes, the agitator bolt is very tight and the lid switch has been jumpered the whole time so I could work on it.   

Yes, with the machine off and empty, when I turn the top agitator it moves freely clockwise and grabs counter-clockwise. But with enough counter-clockwise rotational force by hand I can overcome it and it thump thumps around counter-clockwise.  

 

[VAlto]

Ok, tested the "push down on the agitator" suggestion.  This DOES make a difference.  If I rotate the bottom agitator by itself back and forth then the top agitator just does exactly the same thing.  But if I push down on the top agitator, rotate the bottom agitator back and forth, then the top agitator dogs catch and it advances clockwise.  So how do I make that happen without pushing down?  If you look at the video you can see that the 4 tabs on the (new) bottom agitator are fully seated into the top agitator and the bolt is not moving, it's nice and tight with blue threadlock.  Thanks!

[VAlto]

Tested it with hand weights, had to go up to an 8 lb weight on top the the agitator for it to start advancing.

[Vance R]

8 lb seem way too much, usually it is gentle hand pressure.  Item #22 the thrust washer should have several tab to remove the space between the top and bottom parts of the agitator. 

[VAlto]

Yes, forgot to mention I also put in a new thrust washer between the agitator halves when I replaced the lower agitator.  I put the tabs up, are they suppose to go down instead?  

[VAlto]

On part 11, the retainer (cam drive bearing), I thought the horizontal "fins" were suppose to go flush upwards, but in the diagram it shows them  on the bottom.  All the videos seem to show them on top also, do I have that wrong?  Although mine is different than this, I have the short cam.

[Vance R]

13 minutes ago, VAlto said:

I put the tabs up, are they suppose to go down instead?  

tabs up

 

8 minutes ago, VAlto said:

All the videos seem to show them on top also, do I have that wrong? 

Basically item #11 if a retainer for the dogs #10 to make it easier to assemble. The unnumbered part above the dogs it the main holder. With that part upside down you can install the dogs into the holder then put the retainer in place to keep the dogs from falling out when turn the holder upright. The flat side of the retainer should go against the dogs so they can pivot.  In the picture I provided the retainer appears upside down. 

[VAlto]

Yes, ok, I agree, I put the retainer in flat against the dogs, so I think it's in correctly, not sure why the exploded diagram has it the wrong way.  So in sunmmary, everything is together correctly then.......why does it need so much downward force to engage the dogs?  This is the heart of my problem.

[VAlto]

Could there be something about the brake providing extra resistance?  I haven't done anything with the brake other than casual inspection that everything looked basically ok when I inserted the new transmission.  

[igloo]

6 hours ago, VAlto said:

Yes, forgot to mention I also put in a new thrust washer between the agitator halves when I replaced the lower agitator.  I put the tabs up, are they suppose to go down instead?  

The bottom of the upper agitator has a smooth surface that glides on top of the thrust washer tabs. They should be greased according to instructions, suggesting there is movement in that area when the top turns. Maybe you overtightened it and crushed the tabs going around the thrust washer? Hard to tell without seeing it. Maybe redo everything. I don't think it has to be superman tight with tread lock, you wanna be able to loosen it one day. Just tight, firm, see what difference it makes.

Here is a video, the cam is bit different than yours, it has holes for tabs to be put in, which yours doesn't, but the video shows the thrust washer too. The video specific to your cam doesn't show the thrust washer part.

 

Edited June 5, 2023 by igloo

[Budget Appliance Repair]

@VAlto Sorry to tell you this, you need to contact the company that sold you that new transmission and get another new one under the one year manufacture part warranty.

These new Whirlpool direct drive transmission are absolute JUNK - I've quite purchasing Whirlpool transmission new only will purchase CoreCentric Solution rebuilt ones.   I've had brand new ones so noisy and got another under warranty then used the noisy one in a pinch to get buy and it only lasted about a month.

Other techs in this forum have also had trouble with these new Whirlpool transmisison - the story is the dies and presses that make the parts and transmission case are so old and worn out the tolerances are really bad and they don't make these machines anymore so aren't making new production machinery that is wearing out so transmissions having problems.

The problem with your new transmission is internal - for some reason the agitate spine gear isn't engaging correctly and the agitator shaft isn't going thru a full stroke in either direction because the agitate gear isn't engaging properly into the shaft spines.

[igloo]

It would make sense to buy the ball bearing that you lost and reuse the old transmission, since you already replaced the neutral drain gear and pawls. The ball bearing goes into hole under the agitation shaft and the "dime" size plate goes on top of it with the indent facing the ball. Then shaft goes on top.

[VAlto]

I am still having the exact same problem.  But it looks to me like the transmission is doing a perfect job on moving the shaft, see video.  But it's not engaging the internal splines of the lower agitator.  Does that seem right?  I already spent $100 on a new lower agitator but the splines of the NEW agitator are too loose to the shaft, I don't know which is to blame.  So I have an idea.  It will probably irritate the appliance repair purists but I'm just doing this for me, not a customer, so I want to do a MacGyver repair and drill through the lower agitator and put in some stainless steel set screws, with washers, into the top the of the shaft spline to give it help to staying in place.  I'll have to figure out a way to put the top agitator in place afterwards, but I'm thinking a dental floss sling to hold the cam assembly up until the agitator is on, then slip the sling out.  Does anybody see anything wrong with doing this?  

 

 

It's not really possible to reuse my old transmission unless I use parts from the new one or buy some because 3 parts broke inside when it ran without the ball bearing!  And they're all $50 each on eBay! Both plastic gears, the ovalish metal part and the curved tabs on the ends of the metal plate bent out of shape.  Also the old shaft is super corroded.  But it seems like the new one

 

 

is fine anyway for now.

[VAlto]

Oops, my bad, the top agitator can just be lowered into place without any trouble.  But the thing is that the neutral drain seems to already be broken in my new transmission!  I just ran a full cycle and it definitely starts to spin with a full tub of water again.  I don't even have the agitator on.  So it seems like something is providing too much resistance, so much so that the brand new neutral drain broke after one cycle of working properly.  Could the clutch or brake do that?  What should I test for?

[VAlto]

I wish I could edit my posts, but I don't seem to have that option.  So did a second cycle, this time it DID do the neutral drain, so maybe the first one was just messed up because I had been moving the dial around. 

So back to the idea of just need something like set screws to secure the lower agitator to spline.  Or if that's not enough, maybe even drill through the shaft (below the bolt depth) for a retaining pin.  I just want to secure the lower agitator to the shaft without relying on tiny plastic nubs.  Thoughts?

Thanks

[Vance R]

Run a couple of uninterrupted cycle to test the neutral drain. The lower agitator should slip on the transmission shaft splines snuggle with also no play.  If you still need a transmission just search craig's list or f b for a freebie washer.  

[VAlto]

I would appreciate feedback on putting some set screws through the lower agitator into the bottom of the shaft splines to eliminate the play.  Thank you.

[igloo]

45 minutes ago, VAlto said:

I would appreciate feedback on putting some set screws through the lower agitator into the bottom of the shaft splines to eliminate the play.  Thank you.

MacGyver used everyday items to substitute for parts to make something work only for long enough so he can make a getaway, because he was in a bind and didn't have the right parts on him. The things he built on a mission would not last long. Real MacGyver in his own shop with proper tools and proper parts would do it to spec.

Did you buy the correct lower agitator chosen by the part number?

 

Edited June 6, 2023 by igloo

[VAlto]

Yes, it was not the same part number as the 21 year old one that came off but was identified on repairclinic.com as the replacement part number.  Possibly the plastic splines inside have become worn down with all this rigamarole.  But really it never seemed snug and it seems like the agitator just rocked back and forth.  And they're expensive so I'm not buying a new one that also doesn't fit.  Lots and lots of things use set-screws, even my 3-1/2" concrete hole saw uses a set screw, which is considerably more abusive, so why wouldn't it work here?

[igloo]

1 hour ago, VAlto said:

 Lots and lots of things use set-screws, even my 3-1/2" concrete hole saw uses a set screw, which is considerably more abusive, so why wouldn't it work here?

Because your saw set screw is designed for it. This plastic agitator is not it's not made for it, nor are the splines made for the screw. It's like using the wrong screwdriver on a screw and yes you can turn it, but end up stripping it, so later you can't unscrew it.

First rule a tech is taught is to use the right tools and parts for the job. To not MacGyver it. The consequences are damage will be done and for us that also means liability.

I think if you do it you will damage you new agitator, just like you damaged your transmission, because you are not doing thing correctly.

Edited June 6, 2023 by igloo

[VAlto]

Ok, so I think what you're saying is better to throw it all away rather than try something off book?   Because I already tried a new agitator AND a new transmission shaft, but either the tolerances of the agitator replacement part is slightly off and slips on the shaft spline, or as Budget Repair said the transmission die is worn down so the new shaft is slightly too small.  Either way it will never again work as designed.  So best to put it all out for trash pickup rather than try?

[VAlto]

And like I said at the beginning, this is different than a professional repair, it's just me working on my machine so there is no liability.  The machine is going in the trash if I can't fix it, so what's to lose?