PGSS5PJXCSS - Cooling Issues... a mystery!

[VonRott]

3 hours ago, evaappliance said:

if you have a leak it will be in a vacuum 

By the way evaappliance I appreciate all your help.. 

[evaappliance]

At first just put enough in to get it out of a vacuum on the low side, cars are way more flexible on the pressure , like between 35 and 40 pounds on the low side . On modern refrigerators There is a narrow window where it will cool , to much or to little will not work .  Hope it works for you !

[VonRott]

15 hours ago, evaappliance said:

At first just put enough in to get it out of a vacuum on the low side, cars are way more flexible on the pressure , like between 35 and 40 pounds on the low side . On modern refrigerators There is a narrow window where it will cool , to much or to little will not work .  Hope it works for you !

Thanks for the info I will make sure to be careful with it. Once I receive the items I ordered I'll be able to first test the pressure and if need be charge it to specs. Again I'll of course come back and update my status with my fridge. We'll see who will win, I or my fridge!

[BrewHobbyTech]

After reading everything here, it still could be one of a few different problems, including a leak.....so I'll go with that right now and will give you a couple pointers, and if it is a leak(a small leak) that would be great. You could keep it going for a while without ever finding and/or repairing the leak. Anyway.....here's some pointers that may help if you're going to do this yourself. I've been doing refrigeration since around 1994, and have never done precision charging, i.e. weighing the refrigerant charge. I've always done it with my gauges and reading pressures. After you do it for a while it comes naturally, but I know techs that can't do it that way, and techs that only do commercial.......LOL.....small domestic stuff like this is a whole new world and a heck of a challenge. Not many can do it correctly because in the commercial world you don't have to be very accurate, because of accumulators, TXV's etc. Domestic refrigerators will work fine if you're within about a half oz. over or under charged, but overcharging is worse than undercharging(unless you have a low side leak, I won't get into that now) because if you're suction line frosts up all the way to the compressor, liquid refrigerant is entering the compressor, and it cannot compress a liquid. In other words, you will probably be damaging the compressor if left like that for any length of time. I'll come back to that in a bit.  

If your problem is indeed a leak(and I will assume for now it's a hi side leak), which would mean it's low on refrigerant, you don't actually have to have a set of gauges to charge or add refrigerant to the unit because I've seen the small cans of refrigerant that anyone can purchase, and they do have connector hoses, but you'll probably need an adapter to fit on your tap valve. Automobile refrigeration fittings and domestic refrigerator fittings are different sizes. 

You'll want to charge it slowly, not so much at first, you can probably add an ounce or two safely, because if you are low on refrigerant you're probably low by about a couple ounces, or close. After you do this just let it run and keep tabs on the freezer temp(don't keep opening the freezer door every five minutes). Check every 20-30 minutes and also keep an eye on the suction line. It's the larger copper tube (5/16") going into the compressor, probably(looking from the back) on the right side of the compressor above and to the back of the 1/4" discharge line going to the condenser. Follow where this line comes down from underneath the back wall of the refrigerator. If you see frost on this line don't panic, you're not going to destroy your compressor, just monitor it. If/when you see frost forming on the suction line you're at full charge.....and actually a little over charged(this may take an hour or more), if your evaporator fan is running and everything else is functioning properly. At this point you can disconnect your can of refrigerant, keep monitoring the situation, and if the suction line doesn't frost all the way back to the compressor you should be okay, especially if you have a minor leak. If it does frost back to the compressor you'll have to do what is called "backing off" the frost line. If you have to do this don't take any pictures or post anything online about it. I'm not advising you to do this job yourself....you should call a professional, I'm only giving advice here. 

Just take your time doing this and don't try to rush it, if you should decide to tackle this job yourself........  

 

[VonRott]

59 minutes ago, BrewHobbyTech said:

After reading everything here, it still could be one of a few different problems, including a leak.....so I'll go with that right now and will give you a couple pointers, and if it is a leak(a small leak) that would be great. You could keep it going for a while without ever finding and/or repairing the leak. Anyway.....here's some pointers that may help if you're going to do this yourself. I've been doing refrigeration since around 1994, and have never done precision charging, i.e. weighing the refrigerant charge. I've always done it with my gauges and reading pressures. After you do it for a while it comes naturally, but I know techs that can't do it that way, and techs that only do commercial.......LOL.....small domestic stuff like this is a whole new world and a heck of a challenge. Not many can do it correctly because in the commercial world you don't have to be very accurate, because of accumulators, TXV's etc. Domestic refrigerators will work fine if you're within about a half oz. over or under charged, but overcharging is worse than undercharging(unless you have a low side leak, I won't get into that now) because if you're suction line frosts up all the way to the compressor, liquid refrigerant is entering the compressor, and it cannot compress a liquid. In other words, you will probably be damaging the compressor if left like that for any length of time. I'll come back to that in a bit.  

If your problem is indeed a leak(and I will assume for now it's a hi side leak), which would mean it's low on refrigerant, you don't actually have to have a set of gauges to charge or add refrigerant to the unit because I've seen the small cans of refrigerant that anyone can purchase, and they do have connector hoses, but you'll probably need an adapter to fit on your tap valve. Automobile refrigeration fittings and domestic refrigerator fittings are different sizes. 

You'll want to charge it slowly, not so much at first, you can probably add an ounce or two safely, because if you are low on refrigerant you're probably low by about a couple ounces, or close. After you do this just let it run and keep tabs on the freezer temp(don't keep opening the freezer door every five minutes). Check every 20-30 minutes and also keep an eye on the suction line. It's the larger copper tube (5/16") going into the compressor, probably(looking from the back) on the right side of the compressor above and to the back of the 1/4" discharge line going to the condenser. Follow where this line comes down from underneath the back wall of the refrigerator. If you see frost on this line don't panic, you're not going to destroy your compressor, just monitor it. If/when you see frost forming on the suction line you're at full charge.....and actually a little over charged(this may take an hour or more), if your evaporator fan is running and everything else is functioning properly. At this point you can disconnect your can of refrigerant, keep monitoring the situation, and if the suction line doesn't frost all the way back to the compressor you should be okay, especially if you have a minor leak. If it does frost back to the compressor you'll have to do what is called "backing off" the frost line. If you have to do this don't take any pictures or post anything online about it. I'm not advising you to do this job yourself....you should call a professional, I'm only giving advice here. 

Just take your time doing this and don't try to rush it, if you should decide to tackle this job yourself........  

 

Hey there BrewHobbyTech, I want to give you a big thanks. I read what you said, understood what you said and will heed your advice. So in other words I get what your saying. Thanks for all that info. That kind of information can only be obtained from someone with knowledge obviously... So my "friend" who's familiar with this will most likely assist me with this en devour. Still I'm hoping that this is the issue cause if not I really have no idea of what else it may be. But it only makes sense since the compressor is running hot cause it's working over time trying to cool everything down. 

This fridge is the French door type with the freezer below. It's has 4 thermisters, several fans and all that seems to be running normal. Well at least according to all the ohm and voltage reading I have taken and visual inspections. It also has like a color led screen on the door. So I was using a wired thermometer to physically check the temperature and compare it to the temperature that the led screen was reading off to me. I don't have to open the door to view the temp since the reading and settings can be done from the led screen. The good thing is that my wired thermometer read the same temp that the led was reading off. So I can depend on that for accurate readings.

I read so much info from so many places that it isn't funny. One professional stated that refrigerator and coolers whether they are coke cola fridges or home ones all run closed system but that even closed system can have a leak that may not get noticed and by the tenth year you realize your fridge is not as cool as it once was. Then even after a charge it may be another ten years till it gets low again. And there is a refrigerant that has like a leak stop that is ab;le to close up to a 300 micron size leak. It also guarantees no damage thru ought the entire system. Some said not to use that type as it can cause damage to the system. But as I said I found out for a fact that they do make it for residential refrigerators as well as commercial ones and guarantee the product. I didn't wind up getting and if that theory about a 10 year leak is true I don't care about  that as well since in 10 years there might me something from Star Trek where I can just ask the computer for a cold glass of milk and tadaa!!

But I will listen to my experts and follow their advice...

Have a great weekend all!

 

[lvasquez11]

Check your tech sheet if on hand n it will have low n high side pressures 

[VonRott]

9 hours ago, lvasquez11 said:

Check your tech sheet if on hand n it will have low n high side pressures 

Unfortunately I don't have one and checked where it was suppose to be. Is there a site where I could download it?   Thanks

[Hiroshi]

it is usually listed on the model number tag, refrigerant type and p.s..i. for hi and low sides...

[VonRott]

2 hours ago, Hiroshi said:

it is usually listed on the model number tag, refrigerant type and p.s..i. for hi and low sides...

Yea I'm aware of that. Unfortunately, my fridge doesn't have the full sticker on it. It has a model number and some other informational type stickers. I did see on the compressor, its brand name (Embraco), and a date is on there too showing that it is 06/JUN/08. Also it showed a couple bar code with numbers along with voltage, type of freon (R 134a), amperage and whatnot. There was large letters at the top (VEGY 8H)..

That's the reason I'm requesting a tech data sheet for that type of fridge. Again it's a GE model PGSS5PJX and I know there are 3 different models like mine but mine specifically is the CSS which sometimes you see it as PGSS5PJXCSS.

thanks

[BrewHobbyTech]

For what you're doing you don't need a tech sheet. The sticker will give you certain specs such as testing pressures and amount of refrigerant and what kind was used. Normal specs for hi side factory testing is 300#(or could be 400) hi side and 140# low side. Your refrigerant is 134a and probably uses about 5.5 ounces. The total amount doesn't matter, you're not charging it that way, and I never have. You already have all the info you need to do the job. If you charge it with a low side gauge hooked up you be looking at normal operation when fully charged between 2# and a 2 inch vacuum. So, that would +2 and -2 reading on the gauge. If you're only charging it with the can and an adapter you'll be charging it feeling and looking at the suction line. If you feel it start to get cool then you're there, just keep an eye on frost going to the compressor, as I've already mentioned. Good luck. 

[evaappliance]

1 minute ago, BrewHobbyTech said:

For what you're doing you don't need a tech sheet. The sticker will give you certain specs such as testing pressures and amount of refrigerant and what kind was used. Normal specs for hi side factory testing is 300#(or could be 400) hi side and 140# low side. Your refrigerant is 134a and probably uses about 5.5 ounces. The total amount doesn't matter, you're not charging it that way, and I never have. You already have all the info you need to do the job. If you charge it with a low side gauge hooked up you be looking at normal operation when fully charged between 2# and a 2 inch vacuum. So, that would +2 and -2 reading on the gauge. If you're only charging it with the can and an adapter you'll be charging it feeling and looking at the suction line. If you feel it start to get cool then you're there, just keep an eye on frost going to the compressor, as I've already mentioned. Good luck. 

good explanation ! 

[VonRott]

Yes, I understand. I was feeling confident till people were telling me to get the data sheet for it. But through your guys last few instructions I feel that I won't have any issues. And like you said I'll take it slow and just monitor the progression of the charge by checking the low side as well as watching the gauge.

I'm just waiting for the "saddle" connection and for the hose with gauge to be delivered to my home which should be by Wednesday I believe. And of course I'll  update the progress once it's under way.

As always thank you...

[VonRott]

On 8/13/2016 at 7:45 PM, BrewHobbyTech said:

After reading everything here, it still could be one of a few different problems, including a leak.....so I'll go with that right now and will give you a couple pointers, and if it is a leak(a small leak) that would be great. You could keep it going for a while without ever finding and/or repairing the leak. Anyway.....here's some pointers that may help if you're going to do this yourself. I've been doing refrigeration since around 1994, and have never done precision charging, i.e. weighing the refrigerant charge. I've always done it with my gauges and reading pressures. After you do it for a while it comes naturally, but I know techs that can't do it that way, and techs that only do commercial.......LOL.....small domestic stuff like this is a whole new world and a heck of a challenge. Not many can do it correctly because in the commercial world you don't have to be very accurate, because of accumulators, TXV's etc. Domestic refrigerators will work fine if you're within about a half oz. over or under charged, but overcharging is worse than undercharging(unless you have a low side leak, I won't get into that now) because if you're suction line frosts up all the way to the compressor, liquid refrigerant is entering the compressor, and it cannot compress a liquid. In other words, you will probably be damaging the compressor if left like that for any length of time. I'll come back to that in a bit.  

If your problem is indeed a leak(and I will assume for now it's a hi side leak), which would mean it's low on refrigerant, you don't actually have to have a set of gauges to charge or add refrigerant to the unit because I've seen the small cans of refrigerant that anyone can purchase, and they do have connector hoses, but you'll probably need an adapter to fit on your tap valve. Automobile refrigeration fittings and domestic refrigerator fittings are different sizes. 

You'll want to charge it slowly, not so much at first, you can probably add an ounce or two safely, because if you are low on refrigerant you're probably low by about a couple ounces, or close. After you do this just let it run and keep tabs on the freezer temp(don't keep opening the freezer door every five minutes). Check every 20-30 minutes and also keep an eye on the suction line. It's the larger copper tube (5/16") going into the compressor, probably(looking from the back) on the right side of the compressor above and to the back of the 1/4" discharge line going to the condenser. Follow where this line comes down from underneath the back wall of the refrigerator. If you see frost on this line don't panic, you're not going to destroy your compressor, just monitor it. If/when you see frost forming on the suction line you're at full charge.....and actually a little over charged(this may take an hour or more), if your evaporator fan is running and everything else is functioning properly. At this point you can disconnect your can of refrigerant, keep monitoring the situation, and if the suction line doesn't frost all the way back to the compressor you should be okay, especially if you have a minor leak. If it does frost back to the compressor you'll have to do what is called "backing off" the frost line. If you have to do this don't take any pictures or post anything online about it. I'm not advising you to do this job yourself....you should call a professional, I'm only giving advice here. 

Just take your time doing this and don't try to rush it, if you should decide to tackle this job yourself........  

 

PLEASE READ ON, I'M DESPERATE!!  I don't know what to do from here. You did mention that it can be a few problems. Do I try to add more refrigerant or do I replace the mother board??? I would add pictures but I don't see how I can here.

So everything I needed in order to add freon to the fridge came in the mail yesterday. I followed your advice carefully. The compressor, where it's temperature was way to hot to the touch came down to just being slightly warm. The copper line and the largest line coming out of the compressor (it's a 1/4 inch size line) going up through the back of the refrigerator to where I would guess is going to the evaporator is very cold! Where as before it was hot right at the compressor and slightly warm to a little cool going up the back of the fridge. And now like I said it's very cold and is sweating.

There are 2 lines coming out of the compressor that actually go somewhere and an additional one that is closed off about 6 inches long and crimped at the end. There's the 1/4 inch line I mentioned too you that appears to go to the evaporator. Also the only another line that's just under a 1/4 inch at the compressor than within an inch it reduces to a black line about 4mm or 3/32 of an inch thick and that one goes under the condenser in like a back and forth or zig zag pattern. At the end of that pattern it goes up the back wall of the refrigerator a few inches apart from where the 1/4 line goes up. However this black line is just sort of warm to the touch.

Now after the charge the 1/4 inch line which I'm assuming is the evaporator line got cold and it appeared the temperature of the freezer went down 10 degrees from 46 to 36. The fridge only lowered about 2 degrees. I let it run over night and now the freezer is back up to 46 again the fridge is at 52 degrees. The 1/4 line is very cool to the touch and the compressor is not hot at all still, only slightly warm.

But the reason I ask if I need to add more refrigerant is because you mentioned the line frosting up which it did not do. But still by adding more refrigerant wouldn't it make the fridge colder?

I didn't take the back wall of the freezer off to view the evaporator to see if it frosted up but like I mentioned the line from the compressor did not frost up just got cold to where it was sweating. I do not want to be forced to get another fridge. I want to continue to see if I can fix this one. of course I really need all your help now.

Thanks all...

[BrewHobbyTech]

My original thought was possibly a bad compressor or converter board(compressor running a higher than normal amperage) because you said the compressor was very hot to the touch. The reason I was leaning in this direction is because in my experience, most, if not all domestic refrigerator compressors normally run at least a tad cooler when there is a leak(hi side leak) and there is little/no cooling. The reason for this is because the compressor is not compressing refrigerant, or it is compressing a low amount, and it's the compression that generates the most amount of heat. If there is a low side leak then it will be sucking in air, in which case your head pressure goes way up and it may cause the symptoms you're describing, and usually blows out the valves on the compressor.  

As I said, it could be a few different things, but if you put the tap valve on correctly(and it's not leaking) and on the correct tube(process tube, located on the lower left side of the compressor), and you did everything the way I said and it still isn't cooling properly then you could have a restriction, or what my my original diagnosis was. If it is a restriction then most of the time you can get a good idea where it is. 

Without giving a class on refrigeration(which I think I already have), wherever you have a restriction there is a pressure drop. Where there is a pressure drop you will be able to feel cold, or much cooler than what is normal, and many times you'll see frost form just after the restriction. On domestic refrigerators restrictions mostly occur in the filter/drier(the torpedo shaped copper thingy), or in the cap tube(the very small copper line coming out of the filter/drier). It could be at the very end of the drier or somewhere in the middle of the capillary tube, or somewhere near or at the opening of the evaporator. The back panel in the freezer section needs to be removed to check the cap tube going into the evaporator. The other two places can be accessed behind the refrigerator. 

If you have a restriction check where it starts to get cold, or look for frost(where does it start from), then you found where the restriction is located. 

Other than what I've already posted on this thread.......I don't know if there's any more advice I can give you, but I'll keep checking here to see what happens. Hey, if you lived down the street from me I'd check it out for free and as long as you didn't need a board or compressor, I've give ya a heck of a deal to fix it. I wish you luck. 

 

[VonRott]

3 hours ago, BrewHobbyTech said:

My original thought was possibly a bad compressor or converter board(compressor running a higher than normal amperage) because you said the compressor was very hot to the touch. The reason I was leaning in this direction is because in my experience, most, if not all domestic refrigerator compressors normally run at least a tad cooler when there is a leak(hi side leak) and there is little/no cooling. The reason for this is because the compressor is not compressing refrigerant, or it is compressing a low amount, and it's the compression that generates the most amount of heat. If there is a low side leak then it will be sucking in air, in which case your head pressure goes way up and it may cause the symptoms you're describing, and usually blows out the valves on the compressor.  

As I said, it could be a few different things, but if you put the tap valve on correctly(and it's not leaking) and on the correct tube(process tube, located on the lower left side of the compressor), and you did everything the way I said and it still isn't cooling properly then you could have a restriction, or what my my original diagnosis was. If it is a restriction then most of the time you can get a good idea where it is. 

Without giving a class on refrigeration(which I think I already have), wherever you have a restriction there is a pressure drop. Where there is a pressure drop you will be able to feel cold, or much cooler than what is normal, and many times you'll see frost form just after the restriction. On domestic refrigerators restrictions mostly occur in the filter/drier(the torpedo shaped copper thingy), or in the cap tube(the very small copper line coming out of the filter/drier). It could be at the very end of the drier or somewhere in the middle of the capillary tube, or somewhere near or at the opening of the evaporator. The back panel in the freezer section needs to be removed to check the cap tube going into the evaporator. The other two places can be accessed behind the refrigerator. 

If you have a restriction check where it starts to get cold, or look for frost(where does it start from), then you found where the restriction is located. 

Other than what I've already posted on this thread.......I don't know if there's any more advice I can give you, but I'll keep checking here to see what happens. Hey, if you lived down the street from me I'd check it out for free and as long as you didn't need a board or compressor, I've give ya a heck of a deal to fix it. I wish you luck. 

 

I have a concern as far as your description of my compressor and what I'm actually seeing. First off let e say thank you for still following my post. Now back to my compressor. There's is no connection or copper line coming out of the bottom left side of the compressor whether you face it from the front of the refrigerator or the back where you can actually see the compressor. There's only one tube coming out on the left side and that is at the upper portion of the compressor. That is the  one I mentioned that is only about a 5/16 thick 6 inch long pinched end tube. The other ones are on the right and upper portion of the compressor as well. And those are as I described in my reply earlier. So with the tubes that I have mentioned which is the correct one that I was suppose to use? The one that is like 4 millimeter thick is too small for any connection using the Bullet Piercing Valve 31. So the other two choices is that one that doesn't go to the condenser and the one that sticks out 6 inches on the upper left side.. I actually ordered a new motherboard for the heck of it even though nothing is pointing to it. However, I have to make sure I did this charge correctly first. Thanks so much!

 

 

[BrewHobbyTech]

1 hour ago, VonRott said:

I have a concern as far as your description of my compressor and what I'm actually seeing. First off let e say thank you for still following my post. Now back to my compressor. There's is no connection or copper line coming out of the bottom left side of the compressor whether you face it from the front of the refrigerator or the back where you can actually see the compressor. There's only one tube coming out on the left side and that is at the upper portion of the compressor. That is the  one I mentioned that is only about a 5/16 thick 6 inch long pinched end tube.

 

You're clearly not paying attention to what I posted. I never said a connection(copper tube/process tube coming out from the bottom left side). When I said "lower left side of the compressor".......it means(draw an imaginary line in the middle, halfway from top to bottom of the compressor....horizontally.......and under the middle imaginary line means "lower"........not "under" the compressor, and it's 1/4 inch.....guaranteed. Discharge line is 1/4 inch and on the right lower side of the compressor(looking from the back)....guaranteed.....and the suction line is 5/16 inch(could be a little below or a little above the middle, depends on the compressor).....guaranteed. Ah, I forgot, you have an inverter compressor.....well, I think what I said still holds true but don't quote me on it.....I'm too freaking tired right now. Without paying attention to what I'm saying makes it more difficult/frustrating on both you and myself. 

It's easy enough to do an internet search on domestic refrigerator compressors and where the process and discharge and suction line tubes are located, especially if you're having difficulties understanding how I'm describing things......then that may be a direction you may want to try. 

I don't know what else to say. Anyone else want to give it a shot.....??    

 

I don't know, after this I'm contemplating getting some majic mushrooms.........

 

Haven't done them in about 30 years or more.........but I think I kinda liked them........

 

.........and I may have to do them again...........

 

 

 

[VonRott]

8 minutes ago, BrewHobbyTech said:

You're clearly not paying attention to what I posted. I never said a connection(copper tube/process tube coming out from the bottom left side). When I said "lower left side of the compressor".......it means(draw an imaginary line in the middle, halfway from top to bottom of the compressor....horizontally.......and under the middle imaginary line means "lower"........not "under" the compressor, and it's 1/4 inch.....guaranteed. Discharge line is 1/4 inch and on the right lower side of the compressor(looking from the back)....guaranteed.....and the suction line is 5/16 inch(could be a little below or a little above the middle, depends on the compressor).....guaranteed. Ah, I forgot, you have an inverter compressor.....well, I think what I said still holds true but don't quote me on it.....I'm too freaking tired right now. Without paying attention to what I'm saying makes it more difficult/frustrating on both you and myself. 

It's easy enough to do an internet search on domestic refrigerator compressors and where the process and discharge and suction line tubes are located, especially if you're having difficulties understanding how I'm describing things......then that may be a direction you may want to try. 

I don't know what else to say. Anyone else want to give it a shot.....??    

 

I don't know, after this I'm contemplating getting some majic mushrooms.........

 

Haven't done them in about 30 years or more.........but I think I kinda liked them........

 

.........and I may have to do them again...........

 

 

 

I am paying and have been. That's what I mean as well. I didn't mean under it I meant aside it but not lower than the "imaginary horizontal line" thru the middle but over the "imaginary line" and above it. Meaning that the compressor is approx 7 1/2 inches tall. The right side about 4 inches (from the base) is the 1/4 inch line to the evaporator, then at 3 1/2 (from the base) is the condenser line and on the left side is the 6 inch stubbed line that's 5/16 inch  and is 4 1/2 inches (from the base)... Plus the line sizes I mentioned are correct. Now whether that's different because like you mentioned it's and inverter compressor i don't know, since I never had the pleasure of doing this before to another fridge. But that's the exact description and I never meant literally under the compressor but under the imaginary horizontal line...

We both need sleep. I unplugged my fridge and am using my wine cooler for now...