Viking VGIC365-6BSS Range Oven intermittent sputtering

[Gold Ramen]

Replaced both igniters, then replaced both burner tubes.  Burner tubes performed to manufacturer guidelines right out of the box, - right size flame and all blue. Six operating hours later left side sputter sound, flame is in the burner tube.  Noisy partial burn Flame originating at nozzle where Tube is inserted.  Thank you.

[ECtoFix]

• Partial blockage of burner tubes (unlikely if they're new)
• Primary air shutters opened too wide (possible if new and weren't adjusted)

QUESTION:

Although you said the flames were all blue before they'd backdrafted into the burner tube (at the orifices),  were the flames lifting off the burner face and have a faint roar to them?  If so, then you need to close off the primary air shutters some to settle the flames down. 

As a baseline, try closing the air shutters completely.  YES, they will be yellow or yellow-tipping when you do that.  From there, open the shutters until the flames become a steady blue with uniformed flame dispersion around the burner's face (not wafting flames).

 

FWIW: I would be checking gas pressure too, but you probably don't have the tools to do that.

[Gold Ramen]

Upon flame analysis per instructions the Shutters were closed completely, which actually only caused a little yellow tipping.   The constant yellow became a sporadic flash of yellow(95%
reduction) along the fire line when  I set the Air Shutter openings of both Tubes by 50% of original.  This setting ran for 3 perfect hours (probably quieter as well) then.... About to take a victory lap and thank ECtoFIX the sputtering came back this morning!  One of the burner tubes starts sputtering and I'm told (I'm not on site right now)it is accompanied by a hum now(possibly less air intake changes the sound?) and it is starting with much more of a "whoof"(this may be true).   Turning the unit on and off restarts the intermittent process, good firing for5-45 minutes then half fire.  I have been operating it with the SS fascia trim cover removed  so we can observe the Tubes, Flame, etc. but I don't think this should affect performance. 

This Viking Range was new installed at this location 18 years ago and until this problem has needed only ignitors for maintenance.

Thank you for reading this I appreciate your help

[Terry Carmen]

On 6/5/2020 at 5:33 PM, Gold Ramen said:

Replaced both igniters, then replaced both burner tubes.  Burner tubes performed to manufacturer guidelines right out of the box, - right size flame and all blue. Six operating hours later left side sputter sound, flame is in the burner tube.  Noisy partial burn Flame originating at nozzle where Tube is inserted.  Thank you.

FWIW, I think you're spinning your wheels without a manometer.

If it has been running properly for a long time, and is suddenly acting up ,especially after replacing the burners, there is almost certainly a gas pressure problem.

You'll need a manometer (probably two actually) to monitor the gas pressure before and after the range's regulator.  Sometimes the reg in the range will go bad, but sometimes the one supplying the house will go bad.

 

 

Edited June 12, 2020 by Terry Carmen

[Gold Ramen]

Did more testing, not because I don't agree but I realized something new ---

It is only the Left Burner that is having problems, it is always the Left.  The Right Burner is strong and awesome.  These burners are both being fed by same unit(yes, lack of knowledge here, valve?, regulator?, the body is willing but the mind is weak) and the piping comes out of opposite sides of the unit so one side (Left) would have to be messed up while the other side(Right) is just fine. Could it be the nozzle spraying into the left Burner Tube? 

Scenario:elapsed time always 4-5 minutes

Oven runs fine until heats up to 350deg.  then loss of Left fire.  Turn unit off. Adjust air shutter on burner tube anywhere from full open to closed.  Begins running looking good (shutter opening affects flame from lazy to robust) at the 3-4 minute mark the flame begins to diminish. One minute later it is only a glowing blue line along the side of the burner tube with the soft telltale noise.  The Right burner is beautiful all the time.  

I do not understand the technicalities of why it (Left only) would start out fine then degrade as it warms(higher temps make the gases expand in the Tube faster?).  Would the gas pressure(manometer reading) be the same for Left and Right?  Gas plumbing is uncharted territory for me so I will probably call in service (Viking certified? sounds expensive) since we are now dealing with gas connections, I don't personally mind a little explosion but I would feel bad if it happened to my wife!

 

[Terry Carmen]

I'm still unclear on exactly what is happening. Can you post a video?

> flame is in the burner tube. 

The only way to get flame in the burner tube is if the holes/slots in the burner are too big or the burner cap isn't seated properly, allowing the flame to pass through or it's being ignited from somewhere else. (gas leak? ignition wire? something else?)

 

Edited July 1, 2020 by Terry Carmen

[Gold Ramen]

So Appreciate the quick reply, Terry

Give me an hour, a couple glasses of wine, and some practice!

" And this is Howard Cossell, and the kid has got some fight left in him tonight..."

[Gold Ramen]

More info... the plot thickens

In order to get a better video I pulled out the heat deflector tray (formed flat metal panel with angular steel reflector underneath with asbestos-like pad sandwiched in between that separates the burners from the cooking area) sitting above the burners.  We ran to 400 deg and let it cycle perfectly 8 times.  ....???....

Then I added the tray.  It returned to 400 deg in 3-5 minutes then in one minute diminished to a blue string along the Tube with the beginning of the noisy (incomplete)combustion.

This two part "tray" had rusted/warped apart approximately 6 months ago, I reattached the deflector with sheet metal screws (with the asbestos pad sandwiched) and I thought it was amazingly close to the original dimensions.  Warped 1/4" for sure, deflector pad with a heat induced gash on the left side but seemingly suitable.  

 

Could it be the "tray"?

Thank you very much, you're great!

Gold Ramen

[Budget Appliance Repair]

Swap the new igniters or complete burner tube and igniter from right to left side and see if the problem travels with the burner/igniter assembly.

Maybe you got a bad igniter that is breaking down, (Ohms going way to high as it heats up).  This sounds so much like an igniter problem but you said you replaced both igniters and burner tubes.

@Terry Carmen This is the oven that @Gold Ramen is having a problem with - this Viking range has two separate oven burners, each with there own individual igniter and oven gas safety valve, (standard hot surface igniters).

Edited July 1, 2020 by Budget Appliance Repair

[Gold Ramen]

"We will not declare victory yet"(she said , as she has watched me flail for many evenings trying to get a handle on this) but it has run for 2 hours perfectly.  I did follow the instructions, I did switch left to right burners and igniters,  no problems for 30 minutes then we began baking , 20 minutes later a nearly extinguished blue glow right side (which had been on left pre- switch) and some noise from the left(?, I did not witness this, I was told of this noise).  The problem had moved from Left to Right.  Upon arrival I replaced the right (virtually new ) igniter..... now 2 hours cycling at 350degrees perfect.  

Now, if this works out it will be a great lesson in preventative maintenance and understanding that you can have multiple problems working against/with each other.  Of course who would think the new installed igniter was bad, but the burner tubes were toast as well.  On a 20 year old system the mind wanders considering far flung possibilities.  Even though I did not want to spend the time, the left to right Burner/Igniter switch would expose the greatest number of problems.  Let's hope it was a bad new igniter..  I'll let you know if something comes up.... thanks!! 

 

 

 

 

[Gold Ramen]

We have suffered another setback, snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.   This morning Right side out in 30 minutes. Good Preheat to 400deg, cycle, then restart very feeble flame on Right , elapsed time 30 minutes.  Right side was given a new igniter last night and ran perfect for 2 hours at 350deg.  I was happy enough last night that I reset the air shutter to a little more open to resemble(still not as powerful) the Left, it ran for 2 hours at this setting. 

These igniters did all come out of one Amazon shipment, I believe it is an Electrolux marked box,  I've been replacing 1 of these per year for 18 years so I know they look like the real deal.  The burner tubes are new but of unknown brand, visual inspection showed them very close to original except in shape of holes (round now vs. slits/ovals).

The problem did follow the Burner/Igniter from Left to Right.  But, this is pretty much the same problem I had before I started replacing or moving anything.

The wife keeps throwing away 10 lbs of hand worked dough ( 24 hour proofing time then a three hour window to bake)every time I announce it has been fixed, my reputation is in.... tatters.

 

[Budget Appliance Repair]

If you've been using the same Electrolux igniters and having to replace them every year you might want to try a set of these instead.   I've quit using the OEM 5303935066 igniters because too many of them seem to be failing in less then 2 years.

These are RobertShaw 41-205 igniters and they seem to pull a higher amp draw of usually around 3.8 - 3.9 and I've seen as high as 4.0 - they light the burners in right about 15-20 seconds when brand new compared to 25-30 seconds on the OEM Electrolux ones I used to use.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/5303935066-fits-Norton-and-Frigidaire-Tappen-41-205-IGN5-Gas-Range-Oven-Igniter/381439068240

[tony2cents]

On 6/12/2020 at 12:53 PM, Gold Ramen said:

Upon flame analysis per instructions the Shutters were closed completely, which actually only caused a little yellow tipping.   The constant yellow became a sporadic flash of yellow(95%
reduction) along the fire line when  I set the Air Shutter openings of both Tubes by 50% of original.  This setting ran for 3 perfect hours (probably quieter as well) then.... About to take a victory lap and thank ECtoFIX the sputtering came back this morning!  One of the burner tubes starts sputtering and I'm told (I'm not on site right now)it is accompanied by a hum now(possibly less air intake changes the sound?) and it is starting with much more of a "whoof"(this may be true).   Turning the unit on and off restarts the intermittent process, good firing for5-45 minutes then half fire.  I have been operating it with the SS fascia trim cover removed  so we can observe the Tubes, Flame, etc. but I don't think this should affect performance. 

This Viking Range was new installed at this location 18 years ago and until this problem has needed only ignitors for maintenance.

Thank you for reading this I appreciate your help

what type of fuel ? sounds like safety valve. or you are on propane but you need to check pressure.

[Gold Ramen]

HI TONY

This is a natural gas fuel oven in a very normal first ring suburb in a 120 yr. old house, that actually had gas lighting(then a few years later added  electricity and tore up the beautiful plaster work forever).  

BAR, I'm with you on this and ordered more igniters, but given this problem has used up (4) igniters(install new, throw out, install new, etc.) it is probably more than a bad (evil) group of igniters, though I really hope it is so.

Maybe Terry Carmen has the answer.  Gas Pressure (though why the problem followed the Igniter/Tube assembly from Left to Right I don't know, possibly luck, statistically too short a timeframe))

Loss of the burner(either the Left or the Right) (incomplete combustion(smell), noise, visible 90% reduction of flame) seems to happen after preheat when the components , the oven, begin to get warm, 20 minutes to 2 hours in to the bake...........

 

[Terry Carmen]

Have you tried cleaning out the burner tube? It may have something flopping around inside, like a gob of spiderwebs.

[Gold Ramen]

The Left and Right Tubes are brand new.  I was not impressed by their manufacture (from amazon), a little rough, but I compared to the originals and they were close enough in my opinion(and after changing out the original rusted ones the problem continued just like before replacement).  The inability to repeat the problem,  currently the right burner goes out after 20 minutes, or both burners looks great with no problems after 3 hours, points me to your manometer idea... 

Concerning gas pressure, I have devised a ( really half baked) test.  Get the oven running then turn on the gas laundry dryer and the gas water heater, if the pressure is on the edge this may induce the problem? 

[Terry Carmen]

21 minutes ago, Gold Ramen said:

Concerning gas pressure, I have devised a ( really half baked) test.  Get the oven running then turn on the gas laundry dryer and the gas water heater, if the pressure is on the edge this may induce the problem? 

I don't think it's a gas pressure problem anymore because it moved when you swapped the burners. Also don't think it's an ignitor problem because once the gas is lit, the ignitor is irrelevant.

There's something weird with the burner or something in it.

Is it possible that it's moving or warping when it gets hot?

Edited July 7, 2020 by Terry Carmen

[Budget Appliance Repair]

11 hours ago, Terry Carmen said:

Also don't think it's an ignitor problem because once the gas is lit, the ignitor is irrelevant.

@Terry Carmen you really need to rethink this statement - the ignitor has to be on and pulling the correct amperage anytime the burner is firing.   If for some reason the ignitor is breaking down/resistance rising too much during burner on time then the safety valve will start to close down because the heater wire wrapped around the bi-metal arm inside the safety valve will start to cool down thus letting the valve start to close down.

I've seen them when on the verge of not working the flame will modulate and sputter on the burner.

@Gold Ramen are these by any chance the burner tubes you ordered from Amazon?
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00EKZGCVC/

Last month I ordered a set up these for a Viking range that sounds pretty much exactly like the one you are working on - both of the original burner tubes were all blown out at the ignitors and one side wouldn't light because of a weak ignitor - replaced both ingnitors with the RobertShaw ones and the Amazon burner tubes - they looked exactly like the originals to me.   All worked perfectly fine on the one I was working on.

[Terry Carmen]

7 hours ago, Budget Appliance Repair said:

@Terry Carmen you really need to rethink this statement - the ignitor has to be on and pulling the correct amperage anytime the burner is firing.   If for some reason the ignitor is breaking down/resistance rising too much during burner on time then the safety valve will start to close down because the heater wire wrapped around the bi-metal arm inside the safety valve will start to cool down thus letting the valve start to close down.

The gas valve is supposed to close quickly if the current drops below the minimum current. There shouldn't be a "partially open" state.

 

 

[Gold Ramen]

The problem persists.  I have thought I would get a handle on it, but no.

Current situation:

- right side burner only, flame will deteriorate

- the deterioration takes two forms, a perfectly good flame will become only half lit with incomplete combustion and this may or may not be accompanied by a flame at the beginning of the tube where the gas is squirted in

- the oven will run in "commercial mode"(constant door openings, high heat , lots of cycling) for 5 hours with no problem, the problem could happen at any time or not at all.  This has been observed for the last 6 months and I can't pin down timing(cold start, warming,  hot,  temperature setting, time of day, weather...).

- Turning the oven off and on will restart normal operation 95% of the time.

Last night with a barely warm whole chicken in the oven(the all important Sunday dinner) the problem came up, went to half lit with the extra flame at the inlet.  When we attempted a restart we did not get the red light, it  would not supply electric power, this is something new.   Of course now the LADY OF THE HOUSE is upset and scared of her stove(on this blog we haven't yet gotten to the myriad of cooktop surface burner clicks, non-clicks, start both the rear and front to get the front, etc. etc., which I know is easy diagnosis).  This morning the red light came on normally.

 

She needs this stove to run properly for work and I need to eliminate all safety issues.  Of course she is ready to call in the company certified Viking  people, and a professional like yourselves may be the right thing to do.

Thank you very much in advance.

 

 

[Gold Ramen]

Thank you for reading this.

Called the local certified Viking repair outfit, actually got a pretty knowledgeable guy(he answers the phone because after 35 years in the field his back can't take it).  He wanted to see it happen (half flame on right, noisy) and then maybe a gas valve on the right.  but he wanted to see it happening and it only happens every few hours so that is a problem, I did not have him come to the house. 

But it started happening more often and on Christmas day the right side would not light at all, just glow from the igniter .  realizing that the right side always lights well after the left I replaced the right igniter (which is not old, maybe 100 hours, and made by Robert Shaw,) with a new Robert Shaw.  Now the Right igniter lights first. 

Today, 5-10 hours later the Left burner is at half flame sputtering.  The Left has been a stalwart for the last 6 months. 

Called Viking Service again.  Another good guy on the phone. He said Viking needs 3.6-3.8Amps on the igniter and he has seen after many years that problems start at 3.4amps.  Well I checked and the Robert Shaw shipping box says 3.2-3.6 amps.   the problem? 

He agreed that "Viking charges up the ass" ($147 to $180 each) for their igniters but  the range needs the amperage, and always to replace them both at the same time.  ( he also said he likes the Electrolux igniters but they're not allowed to use them nowadays, he didn't know Robert Shaw).

He called back with more info.  Before they were forced to use Viking original parts they had excellent success with  ... Seneca River Trading  for igniters... $47.50  for two pack Amazon,  they have a round glowplug  and customers were alarmed by "how much they glowed, really really bright". 

https://www.amazon.com/Range-Igniter-Viking-AP5315579-PB040001/dp/B00YCJQY9Q/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=viking+pb04001&qid=1610039638&sr=8-2

 

I am purchasing (4) of these, he also said always replace both at the same time they like to be matched, they should light almost simultaneously.

 

Any other ideas or comments are very appreciated.

Thank you and I hope this some day helps you as well.

 

[MVrepairs]

Are you still wrestling with this? @Gold Ramen

[clevsv]

On 12/22/2021 at 3:08 PM, MVrepairs said:

Are you still wrestling with this? @Gold Ramen

Seems like he found his issue, but I would be curious to hear. When dealing with problems in these systems, to start with both igniters must be replaced together and the amp draw must be correct. Weak igniters out of the box/incorrect amp draw of non OEM igniters is definitely a thing - the one year replacement interval he was seeing with what he had demonstrates that. 
 

If the igniter circuit is correct, then you start checking for other less obvious causes like gas pressure fluctuations or a failing valve.

 

 

[MVrepairs]

@clevsv thank you for the response.  I had a very similar situation and mine was the valve.  

I was working on a VGIC4864GQSS .  The customer had the same complaint of inconsistent temperature and the sputtering noise.  One difference was this unit's ignitor was not the traditional glow type but an electrode.  The tech support even told me to check the amps on the circuit but that was an irrelevant measurement.  It was out of spec to what he told me but since it was an electrode (very similar to a gas cooktop setup) the amps going through the 'ignitor' did not effect the rest of the circuit.  It ended up being a failing valve and the problem was purely mechanical so I had to basically find it by process of elimination.

[clevsv]

20 minutes ago, MVrepairs said:

@clevsv thank you for the response.  I had a very similar situation and mine was the valve.  

I was working on a VGIC4864GQSS .  The customer had the same complaint of inconsistent temperature and the sputtering noise.  One difference was this unit's ignitor was not the traditional glow type but an electrode.  The tech support even told me to check the amps on the circuit but that was an irrelevant measurement.  It was out of spec to what he told me but since it was an electrode (very similar to a gas cooktop setup) the amps going through the 'ignitor' did not effect the rest of the circuit.  It ended up being a failing valve and the problem was purely mechanical so I had to basically find it by process of elimination.

No problem.

Running test with your manometer on the output pressure of the valve is really the only way to confirm this kind of thing, you will be able to watch the pressure coming out of the valve fluctuate in time with the flame misbehavior. If this is impractical, then process of elimination is your best bet. I always save mechanical gas valve failure for last because in my experience although it does happen it is rare.